Sherron Collins’ decision to commit to Kansas over the weekend, after attending the Jayhawks’ Midnight Madness event, is peculiar to say the least
It’s not that Kansas isn’t a great basketball school. It is.
It’s not that he wouldn’t have been bowled over by the atmosphere at Midnight Madness. I’m sure he was.
And it’s not that he couldn’t find success at Kansas and beyond. He very well could.
But no matter how these things turn out, it’s always intersting to see who is pulling the strings in the recruitment process and some of the behind-the-scenes things make you scratch your head in wonder.
When Collins came to Illinois on a previous visit, he told the coaches he wanted to commit. Right then. On the spot. Let’s get it over. This is where I want to be. But his coach, Crane Tech’s Anthony Longstreet, told Collins he wouldn’t let him commit just yet. He wanted to wait.
Longstreet said he felt Collins should take a visit to Kansas. And even though he wanted to play at Illinois, they’d make a courtesy visit to the Jayhawks, then return to Illinois (on Oct. 22) and have an announcement the next week. OK, Collins said. They’d do it that way.
But somewhere along the line — and somehow — Collins was convined he should be at Kansas. Don’t waste your time analyzing this from a basketball standpoint. Of course Weber’s motion offense appears to be a better fit for a guard who covets a professional career, just as it was for Deron Williams and Luther Head and Dee Brown (and Chester Frazier and Jamar Smith, etc…) This isn’t about basketball. It’s about a coach steering a kid some place and whenever that happens you have to wonder why? Why overrule a young man’s instincts? Guide, but don’t decide, that should be the coach-player rule.
Of course, Collins hasn’t called the Illini coaches since his decision was made (for him?). Calls to him have gone unanswered. Even calls to his uncle, who at one point appeared to be in Illinois’ corner, have gone silent.
I was in Indianapolis in July and conferred with other reporters who listened to Collins speak at the Nike All-Ameican Camp. You could not help but come away from that meeting feeling that Illinois was in great shape. And you’re a fool if you believe any of this was about one school “out-working” another. Illinois did everything it could do, above board, and came away empty.
I’m not accusing anyone because I have no proof of misbehavior. But I am always uncomfortable when outside influences seem to make the recruiting decision rather than the player himself. And one can’t help wonder why that outside influence felt so compelled to dictate the young man’s decision.
Bruce Weber has no choice but to move on. If he lands Derrick Rose and Eric Gordon, he’ll be in great shape at the guard position. And, Gordon, who said he had such a good time at Illinois’ “Madness” event Friday night, might be back on campus this weekend for another visit. Even now, with Chester Frazier looking better than first believed, and Jamar Smith possibly a shooter of great merit, Illinois is not desperate at the guard spot. And don’t forget: Weber has a commitment from the one thing Illinois has rarely had — a skilled big man. Brian Carlwell is going to be a 7-footer who will do some significant damage before all is said and done.
I hope Collins’ decision works out well for him. I just wish I thought it was a decision he made on his own.
October 18th, 2005 at 5:48 pm
I can’t say losing collins to kansas doesn’t piss me off, i don’t really understand why they want to play in the high low system and not the motion offense. But i like that weber can turn kids that came in with much less projected potential, and turn them into winners. (see classes and SIU and Head and Williams) So now i can say go ahead and go play with ur(self) at kansas and watch as you don’t put together a great career, and look at the kids weber will send to the nba and how far we go in the big dance (Go Bucknell) And for Rose and Gordon if they are that good now, just think how good they will be after weber’s system. Come to the orange nation boys
October 18th, 2005 at 5:53 pm
someone got paid one way or the other
October 18th, 2005 at 5:56 pm
Maybe somebody has the answer to this question.
If a month ago, Bruce Webber was hosting a scrimmage for recruits who might be in the 9th, 10th grade, etc. and got the chance to be “best buddies” with these young people at such a young age, and then he left to go to, say, Kansas, wouldn’t he walk away with all the best recruits from the area and wouldn’t this carry over for several years??
Isn’t this like any salesman quitting and going to the competition and taking all the best accounts?
The point seems to be, keep your coach more than a year or two if you want to build your program or be content with good, but not great, results with the old standby players from Peoria.
October 18th, 2005 at 6:01 pm
Some recruits go ahead with all the visits even though they have committed, maybe to get all they can get out of the process. Did Collins call off his official visit this coming weekend? Who else will be coming besides Eric Gordon?
October 18th, 2005 at 6:05 pm
Man, this has got to be the fishiest thing I have ever seen in recruiting. Even yourself Mr Tupper who has in the past stood up for B$ll S$lf has gotta be scratching your head.
October 18th, 2005 at 6:11 pm
How sad when a young man’s future is decided by hidden agendas. Did the snake oil salesman (reminds me more of the old rain makers) know he was easily swayed, invite him for midnight madness, turn his head, and sweep in and steal him or were there those in the background with something personal to gain. Someday, Collins will realize his mistake.
If it was the Illini grabbing someone that suddenly, how quickly would the NCAA be there looking into it?
Oh well, I feel for the kid if there is anything other than genuine interest, but all things happen for a reason, and I have faith we will be the better for it. Maybe Gordon or Rose would balk if Collins signed. Maybe a gem in the rough currently on the team wouldn’t stick it out and become an Illini great. Weber will get (or make) the great players and the Illini will be amongst the best in the country, this I believe. Count me among the Illini faithful. Hallelujah, it’s time for Fighting Illini Basketball. Is this heaven? (Sorry, Alford, it ain’t Iowa, that’s for sure!)
Save the Chief!
October 18th, 2005 at 6:19 pm
Ron Zook came from a region (and brought with him) a mentality that a kid is fair game until the letter of intent is signed. Maybe Weber should not give up on this kid. Hello Luther. If nothing else maybe a house will fall on Self.
October 18th, 2005 at 6:24 pm
You guys are sour grapes. Get over it, the kid wants to play for a storied program. A program where the fans are pasionate. He also probably figured that listening to squeaky for four years would probably put him into an insane asylum.
Rock Chalk Jayhawk P.S. Thanks for Julian Wright, also
October 18th, 2005 at 6:29 pm
Well, Mark, you know how I tried to tell all of you that once Mr. Smooth got involved that it meant trouble and I was correct wasn’t I?? That said, maybe what happened was that Coach Longstreet got “recruited” by Mr. Smooth rather than the kid. Get where I’m coming from on this? He was here long enough to establish a relationship with the Chicago coaches. Maybe they just “love” him so much that they will steer any kid with Division I talent in his direction…I’m just taking guesses here, but as soon as KU got involved, I smelled a rat..BIG TIME RAT!!! But, so what? If the kid wants to spend his college career throwing lob passes to 7-footers under the bucket, well go ahead son, be my guest. We are set at guard for awhile. Just a head’s up for everyone. I’m not trying to be a gloom and doom guy..just an apprehensive one. Look who is involved with Rose and Gordon. Remember, they are about 17 years old now. 17!! They like Illinois NOW, but what about when they visit Duke and see Cameron or talk to Mikey the legend? Their opinion of us could change in a heartbeat. How about talking with the “Silver Fox” out west? All those pretty girls, the continous warm weather.. the tradition??? Why would ya want to spend the winter in snow when ya could be gettin’ warm sunshine all the time?? Alot of things could change in the life of a 17 year old in a year and a half. Let’s hope that the significant adult in their lives will steer them our way…where they can blossom as an NBA guard possibility…running the “pro” offense that Weber uses. The Crane Tech stuff has sworn me off trusting ANY of these kids AND their coaches until they sign the LOI. Too many snakes in the grass out there ready to steal them from a good guy like Weber with snake oil and a smooth line of crap. My advice to kids that like Illinois? If you REALLY want to go here, PROVE it and sign the paper. Otherwise, be prepared for the onslaught of bull that recruiting is today. The national and Chicago media are already making Weber out to be inept at recruiting. What will the kids think when they read that? And, believe me, they do read it! Let’s be positive and hope that another good year(it doesn’t have to be like last year) will convince folks that Coach Weber does know what he’s doing and can prepare kids for the next level as good or BETTER than anyone coaching today. I believe that, don’t you? I saw it the last year and a half! We all love ya, Bruce ..no matter what. Keep plugging and things will work out fine. As Editor has told me over and over..we did have to “settle” for Deron instead of Bracey. That seemed to work out pretty good ya know! GO ILLINI!!!
October 18th, 2005 at 6:33 pm
First off, Sherron called Weber before he called Self, that is straight from his coaches mouth. And to tell you the truth, I got the feeling, after listening to his coach after the announcement, that he thought Illinois would be better. He kept talking about how good of friends he was with Weber. I would think Julian last year would have been more fishy than this, but I may be wrong. But I don’t think it’s right to point fingers off of one’s intuition.
October 18th, 2005 at 6:36 pm
Right on, Tupps!
Thanks for saying (and hinting at) some things everyone else won’t have the guts to come out and say. Julian Wright and Sherron Collins have more in common than them both being Illinois kids who ended up at Kansas.
I have full confidence in Bruce Weber, who chooses to play fair ball. One day we’ll know the full story behind these cases and Bruce Weber will come out the better for it, and so will the Illini basketball program and the University of Illinois itself.
Ron Guenther had to report several NCAA infractions that occurred under our former coach. Don’t forget that. I have a feeling he won’t have anything to report while Weber is here.
October 18th, 2005 at 6:41 pm
Great blog, Tupps. I agree this can’t be about basketball, and somehow I doubt it’s about academics. Peculiar is a good word.
Thanks for reminding us of all the good news about players we already have or have committed.
Oskee wow wow! Save the Chief!
October 18th, 2005 at 6:44 pm
I know for a fact that one or more KU supporters gave $$$ to players under Williams and that same supporter is just as close to Self. You figure it out!
October 18th, 2005 at 6:45 pm
Sour grapes. Move on.
October 18th, 2005 at 6:46 pm
i think illinois should put a large billboard in chicago with a pict of B.A.M. on it and a pict of self with the caption (who would u trust with your future ) B.A.M. or B.S. er , cause somthing sure did go on in kansas last weekend
October 18th, 2005 at 6:47 pm
No where in the article does it mention that Collins wanted to commit to KU while he was there, and his coach told him to wait and sleep on it. I also can’t find any quotes from Collins in the last 3 months saying Illinois was his favorite. From an outsider looking in, Weber needs to look in the mirror on why recruits are leaving the state (we got one last year) instead of accusing coaches of wrongdoing. Same could go for the writer of this one sided story.
October 18th, 2005 at 6:54 pm
You are a bunch of cry babies. Sour grapes anyone. Kansas is much better, Collins realizes this and made a great choice. As did Julian Wright. BEWARE OF THE PHOG..
October 18th, 2005 at 7:19 pm
There’s a Pulitzer out there for the reporter who blows the lid off the ugly underside of basketball recruiting. Now that Ed Martin is dead, I always figured the source of the infection was the AAU coaches, promoters, and hangers-on, but maybe it extends to high school coaches, too. Sad commentary on human nature, if there’s anything to this. Keep an eye on who goes where and follow the money if you can.
October 18th, 2005 at 7:41 pm
Great article TUP. I fill the same way. I smell a rat.
October 18th, 2005 at 7:41 pm
To quote the article, “Illinois did everything it could do, above board, and came away empty.” As a journalist, you’d better have something solid to back up your implication, or you could be in serious trouble. This is the worst kind of reportage, if you can call it that, insinuation without corroboration. You should be ashamed. It’s one thing to be upset about losing a recruit you should’ve gotten, but that’s Weber’s fault; this is not an anomoly; what about Duke? Are they also paying coaches and players? They took two from the Illini. My point is, Illini fans and now the reporters who cover them are beginning to look like a serious bunch of whiners; I’m sure this is very attractive to recruits. Nice work. The Whining Illini; has an attractive sound to it.
October 18th, 2005 at 7:57 pm
I gotta believe that Longstreet got his “palms greased” somewhere along the way. Public League coaches for years have had shady off court reputations and many are from a culture and city where a “quid pro quo” is the norm.
Many coaches may feel entitled that after toiling as a HS bench coach they get frustrated that a kid they were yelling at one day gets national attention or NBA millions the next.
If the tone of Tuppers article is correct, then the situation at Kansas deserves more than a raised eyebrow by both the media and the NCAA.
October 18th, 2005 at 8:14 pm
Mark, your blog is “right on.” This scenario played itself out in a most bizarre manner. Collins complete 180 at Longstreet’s urging. I hate to cry foul, but the circumstantial evidence is quite compelling.
October 18th, 2005 at 8:17 pm
Best wishes to Juice Williams and Chicago Vocational in the playoffs!!! Beat Crane!
It’s very classy of Kansas to put the Bucknell mascot on their state quarters. I respect that! Bison up!!
October 18th, 2005 at 8:17 pm
Any chance at all that the coach simply wanted the kid to see at least two schools before making a decision? No, there has to be a conspiracy eh?
October 18th, 2005 at 8:23 pm
Even though I am dissapointed in Collins decision, I don’t think 5-10 guard in Big 10 or in pro’s do very well(ofcourse there are exceptions). I hope we can get rose and gordon.
October 18th, 2005 at 8:29 pm
There is a good reason why Kansas new nickname
is the “PAYHAWKS” !
October 18th, 2005 at 8:30 pm
It kills me how people seem to forget that Bill Self USED TO COACH AT ILLINOIS!!! Hello??? Evidently he only became a snake after leaving the U of I campus.
Unless someone has some evidence that he actually did something wrong, making these sorts of accusations is classless, disrespectful to both schools, and nothing more than sour grapes.
The thing the Illini should be wondering about is why, after the great run to the Final last season, this recruiting class is not a killer. Sherron Collins is just one player. Where are the other 5-star recruits you should have had lining up to come to Champaign? Perhaps the problem is under your nose, and you don’t want to admit it . . .
October 18th, 2005 at 8:34 pm
Morris,
In response to, “This is the worst kind of reportage, if you can call it that, insinuation without corroboration.”
It’s called a blog.
October 18th, 2005 at 8:37 pm
Tell it like it is, Tup. This whole thing has a bad smell to it. If Collins was that ready to commit to UI several weeks ago, there ought to be a look-see by the NCAA as to what changed.
As for all the Phog-gots here, here’s new for you — not only can’t he coach, he cheats, too.
October 18th, 2005 at 8:54 pm
Tupp,
I have to give you credit for having the stones to write this. You’ll no doubt be criticized as a “homer” - folks may even accuse you as simply voicing your buddy B Weber’s opinion (you did pen his book). But, I applaud your blog - it’s on point.
Now, the question becomes - “what next?” Have you the guts to push it? Get Chicago media to pick it up (aside from Mariotti), then questions can’t help but be asked and attention focused on this murky issue.
October 18th, 2005 at 9:07 pm
As an Illini living in Kanas I think your comments are right on. From what I read in the Lawrence media Self asked for a date and Longstreet penciled in Late Night. Everyone know what kind of influence this night has on a recurit. That is why the schools spend the money. The kid was soimpressed by the fans, they treated so great. Give me a break the fans at the dumpy old fieldhouse are no more impressive than most Big Ten venues. If you are a greaat recruit showing up at late night you are going to be treated well. Look at Gordon and Illinois. I don’t care if he goes to KU I just think he got some bad advice from his coach. The Chicago media is not giving Weber a fair shake and the Kansas media have made a lot of excuses for Bucknell. The next two years will prove if Self can coach all this talent and if Weber can can win with his recruits.
October 18th, 2005 at 9:08 pm
For those KU fans, Self did committed about 20 violations when he was at Illinois. They were documented! And Self had been accused of underarchieving at Illinois and KU.
October 18th, 2005 at 9:16 pm
I’ve been following this entire recruiting mess from day one. I’ve met the kid. I’ve met a member of his family and a fellow teammate.
Here is what I’ve been told……………
I’ve been told that he already had given Illinois a silent verbal during the Illinois Basketball Camp. (Teammate)
I’ve been told that he is a huge Illinois basketball fan and is close with Luther. (ALA Garfield Park)
I’ve been told that his mother wanted him to stay close to home.
I’ve been told that a certain coach has stated that Illinois can’t offer what the other team can!
I’ve been told that this result has pretty much been a done deal for the past two months and that even some of the current Illinois players were aware it was over!
I’ve been told that he doesn’t want to play the point guard position he would rather play the two in college(which may lead to Chalmers/Collins back court)
I’ve recently been told that he chose not to come to Illinois because they won’t take his brother!@#
I’ve been told conflicting stories that he didn’t care too much for the trip to Kansas! (Contrary of course to what Longstreet has said to the media)
I’ve been told and have heard that people have seen Longstreet and Self out for lunch in downtown Chicago on various occasions. I would imagine that they were talking about defensive strategies and the intricacies of the High Low offense!
And, in the end result, of all my confusion regarding this mess, one thing leads me to full mental clarity on what is really going on!
The kid himself isn’t playing for Kansas, his coach i$!
Simply Sickening!
October 18th, 2005 at 9:52 pm
First Self gives a job to a player’s father as an OBVIOUS package deal, then, he hires one of the shadiest assistants in college basketball in Kurtis Townsend, now Anthony Longstreet, after previously GARAUNTEEING visits to Iowa and Illinois due to their recruiting Collins the longest and stating they would not be going to a school with another top PG because of Crane’s Will Bynum’s experience at Arizona and Geogia Tech… then Collins goes to KU, returns home, makes phone calls that he wasn’t blown away on the visit, and commits the next day???
HELLOOOO? MCFLY! What the heck do you think is going on? No visits to Illinois… no return calls, Longstreet not getting back to Tracy Webster at Illinois???
Man, you’ve got to be dense, dumb, or retarded not to see the writing on the wall.
Have fun Sherron, keep dishing that ball off to the big man to feed the Hi-Lo, waiting for Self to install his vaunted running offense…
October 18th, 2005 at 10:01 pm
^^^^ Was going to post the above but he already said it. IF BILL SELF IS CORRUPT, THEN YOUR LAST SEASON WAS A CORRUPT ONE ALSO. You can’t brag about last season and the players on the team when they were recruits of Bill Self. There were some great players on the Illinois team last year, almost too good. Makes you wonder if they should forfeit all of last season.
October 18th, 2005 at 10:09 pm
Nice to see the Jayhawk fans complain about an inference about payments, etc. Any notice that the explanation of a little old lady paying $50.00 (ha ha) graduation gifts and the NCAA just turn their heads.
October 18th, 2005 at 10:12 pm
Mark, what did you know and when did you know it? As you wrote, you were very confident on Sherron earlier in the year, but in recent weeks, you’ve been lukewarm at best, basically noncommittal. I think you saw this coming. What tipped you off?
October 18th, 2005 at 10:14 pm
This story didn’t originate with Tupper– there was a recent article with a quote from Weber talking about shady recruiting.
http://www.chicagosportsreview.com/chicago/chicagoview.asp?c=167873
Maybe it was sloppy journalism, but it seemed like Weber was insinuating something about you-know-who.
Honestly, I’m happier with a program I know is clean than with a dirty squad of All-Americans.
October 18th, 2005 at 10:19 pm
And by the way, it’s one thing to lose recruits to Coach K. He’s selling one of the top schools in the country, an incredible record of producing top NBA players, and a program that seems to get a 1 seed every year. Duke is on TV more than anyone else in the country, and, for all the people who hate them, they have enough fans that a couple of stars every year will have grown up dreaming of playing for them. Kansas has a good program, but I don’t think you can put their recent success in the same category as Duke’s, and you certainly can’t put Bill Self in the same category as Coach K.
October 18th, 2005 at 10:27 pm
What a bunch of crybabies! Kids decide to go play at one of the most tradition-steeped, successful programs in the country for a young, energetic, charasmatic, successful coach instead of an moderately successful program for an annoying, squeaky, insecure coach. Where’s the mystery? Oh, the only possible explanation is is cheating? Hey, if that’s what helps you get up in the morning. And about someone else pulling the strings for a recruit and making his decisions for him, there’s no evidence that’s what happened, but what if it did? In the end the goal of recruiting any kid is to sign him. If that process involves having to win over coaches, parents, siblings, whoever, then that is what a coach has to do. If your coach can’t figure out that, or thinks he’s above it, blame him, not the others who understand the landscape and adjust as needed.
October 18th, 2005 at 10:28 pm
Just a few things. First, you assume that there is no way that Collins could have made his visit to Kansas, seen how much more they offered to him, and then decided that Kansas was a much better place for him. You also imply that Webers offensive system is somehow better at producing NBA guards. Simply not true. Did he have success with very talented guards (of whom he didn’t recruit)? Yes, but that hardly means that his motion (every offense has some motion and some hi/lo for that matter) would somehow fit a guard better than Self’s system. By the way, Self has said over and over again since he landed his highly recruited 05′ class, that his offense will look very different than it has. To imply that Weber’s style of play will give any player an edge in reaching the league is one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever read. Roy Williams, for example, has what is perceived as one of the best offensive systems in college basketball. In 17 years, he has hardly produced a high number of guards. Bottom line, cream rises to the top. No matter the system.
October 18th, 2005 at 10:30 pm
I read a quote on rivals.com that said Collins wanted to commit to KU on his visit, but Longstreet told him to sleep on it and see if he still felt that way in the morning. Now I don’t know much about the situation honestly, and I doubt many of you do either, but maybe you shouldn’t badmouth someone when you don’t know all the facts. It sounded to me like Longstreet didn’t want him to make a rash decision. But, of course, I don’t know all the details, so maybe he is crooked.
October 18th, 2005 at 10:45 pm
I wonder if this commit has anything to do with KU being a BBall powerhouse and IU being a newcomer with a whiny coach? You know, because Weber is a complete tool and all.
But hey, keep those bitter grapes a fallin’ cuz
it’s damn funny.
October 18th, 2005 at 11:04 pm
You guys are idiots. Just face it. Just as Roy won with Matt D.’s players, Weber won with Self’s players. Any bitter attitude you have toward Self is that he was the coach that brought you to the cusp of removing that “best team ever to not win a title”. And the fact that he left you to come to a better program. Hang up your denial and your orange and navy blinders. Self will lead the Jayhawks to many titles. As Gregg Doyle on cbs.sportsline.com commented on the Brandon Rush situtation (BTW we got him too) “if Bill Self wants a player, he’ll be a Jayhawk…” BOOM!
October 18th, 2005 at 11:09 pm
First of all, I think Mark Tupper is an exceptional sports writer. But I have to disagree with the tone of his article & several other posts on this blog. Who knows why Collins committed to KU when he did? Nobody can prove any wrong doing at this point. If there was any, then Self & Kansas should pay the price. But as Illini fans we can’t worry about what other schools are doing. If they cheat to get recruits and those kids accept those bribes or whatever, then did we really want them anyway? I know when Self was here he did a great job of recruiting and nobody had a problem with anything. Let Bill Self run Kansas the way he wants to run Kansas. Bruce Weber has proven so far that he is an adequate recruiter. We need to give him more time to prove that he is an exceptional recruiter. He has gotten a solid commitment from a top 40 player in Brian Carlwell. Now let’s see what he can do with next years recruiting class. I could have sworn I heard Weber say in several interviews shortly after the final 4 that last years run will affect the 2007 class much more than the 2006 class. I believe that the Gordon’s & Rose’s will be very impressed with the Illini’s upcoming season. Bruce Weber is a great COACH and in time he can become a great RECRUITER. Recruiting is so much about the situation and what you’ve done in the recent past, but if you can coach kids to the next level, eventually these recruits will see that and head to the U of I.
GO ILLINI!!!
October 18th, 2005 at 11:15 pm
Tupper as a reporter this will give you an excellent opportunity to find out why your boy Weber can’t sign a Top 50 recruit. You need to investigate every program that has signed an Illinois prospect.
KU doesn’t need to pay or promise players to attend their program same as Duke or UNC. Get real.
You and Weber are trying to deflect his short comings on the recruiting trail at the expense of a good man and insitution.
Shame on you for being a shameless homer.
October 18th, 2005 at 11:26 pm
UNBELIEVABLE. How can any guard with professional aspirations not take a serious look at Illinois. I credit Bruce Weber for single handedly rescuing Luther Head’s career beyond college. Luther Head was a very average guard under Bill Self’s High/Low system and certainly would not have been a first round draft choice if Self were to have remained at Illinois. Coach Weber has established himself as a solid coach using an exciting motion offense. The only difference between Collin’s recruitment and that of Julian Wright’s is that Collins at least visited the school before he committed. Self is a loser and this will only become more and more evident. Bruce Weber is hands down a better coach.
October 18th, 2005 at 11:28 pm
Hey Tupster–I feel likeyou I wonder why the suddencgange in heart by Collins–also why he said he would wait and cme to Illinois before he did “anything”–wht would a guard who can play in an uptempo style of play–get great “Pub” and go to where they play “Walk up basketball” and toss it to the post guy and hack like hell on defense instead of moving your feet–I’m also leeryof a 5′10″ guard really being the “All”–we’ll just haveto wait and see–maybe Chety the Jet will end up a better fit than sC–GO ILLINI—Chip/10-19-05
October 18th, 2005 at 11:41 pm
Compelling piece here, Mark. But please tell me you have something–anything–to follow up with in tomorrow’s edition.
As it stands, these baseless implications are borderline unethical in your profession. But, I suppose you know that. You also know that many people now expect to read what you seem to be afraid to print. I guess we will have to wait until tomorrow…
GO ILLINI
October 19th, 2005 at 12:27 am
you guys are ridiculous… you know self. you know he follows the rules. if you were at late night in kansas, you would understand how good self has it here. it’s not hard to sell this place. keep recruiting against kansas… it should work out for you.
October 19th, 2005 at 12:31 am
There has been rumblings of something shady like this since the end of July and early August. My question is, if this is true, what does Longstreet have on Collins to seemingly force the kid to KU? Something stinks here and I hope KU, Self, and you arrogant KU fans get what you deserve.
October 19th, 2005 at 12:34 am
I’d also like to point out the leap of logic it takes to assume Self was clean at Illinois, but becomes dirty at KU. Any objective outsider would cosider KU a better program, but Illini fans want to believe Self has to cheat to get talent there while being clean to get talent to lesser programs. Makes perfect sense.
There has been a lot of insinuation from Illini fans, and that is one thing. When it comes from coaches and writers, my expectations are raised. Provide some proof. It is quite pathetic.
October 19th, 2005 at 1:29 am
Look, I think everyone is reading too much into this. Mark specifically stated he had no proof of this, and there is no mention of Self anywhere in the article. Mark is implicating Longstreet for his influence over Sherron towards Kansas, and I don’t think anyone in their right mind could argue with that. Everything Longstreet has said for the past couple months has indicated he had a Kansas induced hard-on for whatever reason. Whether it was money, prestige, or that Longstreet simply believed Kansas would be better, Mark is just telling it like it is - KU is probably not the best place for Sherron to blossom as a guard given Self’s track-record for ruining guards and his abysmally unimaginative high-low offense.
Read it again everyone. Mark is shooting from what he knows here: Sherron was ready to commit to Illinois, he loved it here, and Longstreet talked him out of it. Longstreet promised visits to Illinois and Iowa, those never happened. All of that adds up to make it appear as if Longstreet had an agenda. What that agenda is, Mark made no claims of knowing.
October 19th, 2005 at 1:34 am
Sam S. posted the following statement: “The thing the Illini should be wondering about is why, after the great run to the Final last season, this recruiting class is not a killer.”
Jim Boeheim, coach of Syracuse told BAM that it wouldn’t be this year that the Final Four run would produce a significant rise in recruiting but it would be the second year after the great year they had.
Considering he (Boeheim) went through the same thing a few years back, I’ve got to accept his judgement about recruiting. That would mean Rose & Gordon?
We’ll be fine. In Weber I trust.
October 19th, 2005 at 1:51 am
This is the biggest bunch of crap I have ever heard. I would expect this from Mizzu fans but your whining is just pathetic! Why would Collins come to KU first if Ill was his first choice? The only reason that you went anywhere in the dance is because you had Coach Self’s players. So go ahead and whine I think they give out loser towls at the NIT!
October 19th, 2005 at 3:13 am
Wow. You are one ballsy and jealous guy to be accusing Kansas and Bill Self of all of this. If Bill and co. are so dirty, how is it that Illinois remained so clean? Illinois fans are pathetic and will never been in the “elite” club that Kansas is in. Keep dreaming, fellas.
October 19th, 2005 at 4:49 am
Amen to comment #27
October 19th, 2005 at 6:03 am
he’s good but there are better guards in illinois!
Maybe Bruce knows this!
October 19th, 2005 at 7:09 am
WOW . . . was just checking in before leaving on my golf trip, and lo and behold I find 57 posts made in less than 15 hours.
You obviously pushed the right button to arouse a bunch of recruit-happy Illini fans, Tupps . . . not to mention a few Hayjock fans.
Hey JAYDREAMIN: I’d love to see things your way, but I can’t get my head up my butt.
You too, Frankie.
OK - so Weber went the distance with “Self’s” players - I’ll give you that, and I’ll even overlook the fact that not a single one of those players were considered blue-chippers in their respective recruiting classes.
Now you KU fans have Obie-Wan-Recruity, who took over a team recruited by old Roy, and they end up playing just 40 minutes in the NCAA Tourney last season, falling flat on their faces against Hoops Powerhouse Bucknell.
Listen up, Hayjocks: that ain’t the kind of “elite club” we Illini fans would ever want to belong to.
We’d rather belong to that little elite club known as the Final Four, and we welcome ya’ll to join us, and now that you’ve won the tug of war over Sherron Collins, you’ll have no excuses if you don’t.
What you WILL have is a man sitting in the head coach’s office that can’t coach . . . a man who worries more about his hair implants than watching game tapes . . . a man who can obviously recruit a decent group of players to Illinois, but can’t coach a more elite group, recruited by Roy, out of a wet paper bag.
Self was at Illinois three years:
1st year: Elite Eight
2nd year: Sweet Sixteen
3rd year: 2nd-round loss
At least at Kansas it only took him two years to get worse than that, and in those same two years, Weber has had a bigger, more positive impact on Illini hoops than Self did in three.
So you see, we’re not whinin’ at all.
We’re GLOATING, you morons.
October 19th, 2005 at 7:25 am
Ron Turner was a heck of a coach, but not much of a recruiter.
Where did that lead the football program?
Now substitute Ron Turner’s name with Bruce and Football for Basketball.
Talent wins.
October 19th, 2005 at 7:26 am
I guess Self wasn’t clean at Illinois since he recruited well there. When can we expect the investigation?
Ochm’s Razor people — the simplest explanation ususally suffices. In this case, KU has a ton to offer and is a traditional powerhouse. Its not unusual for us to beat out schools that are very good but not “traditional powerhouses.”
Plus, its not as if Illinois has a great tradition of pulling in Chicagoland players.
October 19th, 2005 at 8:00 am
This is reminiscent of 2 other recruiting situations in the past - Hart Lee Dykes and Laphonso Ellis. Something’s not right but it may never be proved. Regardless, with Scheyer, Wright and Collins fleeing the state, the Illini still have recruiting inroads to make into Chicago. The good news is we’re still leading on Eric Gordon though his statement about not signing until the end of the school year undoubtedly makes us all nervous.
October 19th, 2005 at 8:11 am
Keep shouting it out Tupps.
Tupper made no bones about the speculative nature of this blog where speculation was made. He also seemed to make no bones about the factual portion–the original plan with Collins committing after his vist to Illinois on the 22nd. He never mentioned Self…the only coach he mentioned was Longstreet. And the only implication was that Longstreet, his reasons unknown, seemed to steer Collins in one direction. Who knows why and really who cares. It’s done now and we move on to the next prize.
There’s no doubt Self is a great recruiter and has a great team of coaches doing recruiting for him. He did well recruiting at Illinois…and we all appreciated his ability to do it while he was here. I suspect he plays by the rules as much as 99% of the coaches out there do. There really is no reason to suspect otherwise. Of course, the same could have been said about Quin Snyder…and in time the truth came out. If there’s something fishy going on with Self, time will tell, but that isn’t going to change the Collins deal.
So guys, let’s just all calm down. And remember that Bill Self mightily underachieved by taking Roy Williams’ recruits to the brink of the second round. There’s no doubt that Williams would’ve failed to get that KU squad to St Louis, but there is little doubt that powerhouse Bucknell would have kicked their butt out so early.
So, say what you will about Weber, poke fun at “homers” and tell us we’re all “sour grapes” and “losers”. But you can’t deny three facts:
1) Weber has proven time and again over his head coaching career that he can win without a team full of McDonald’s All Americans and take them deep into the tournament. Team play is the way.
2) While he’s proven he can recruit and inherit great talent, he has underachieved with all that talent. Bill Self has never coached the NCAA title game–with his talent or anyone else’s.
3) Bruce Weber ain’t Bill Self.
Sign the all-americans. That’s fine. But they’re going to get awfully sick of sitting on their ass, watching TV in late March.
I L L I N I
October 19th, 2005 at 8:15 am
#60 It’s not fair–nor relevant–to make comparisons between basketball and football. If you can’t see differences in the two sports, I’m not going to take the time to explain it to you.
Besides…Ron Turner is an awful coach…
October 19th, 2005 at 8:30 am
Have any of you Illini guys ever been to KU for a basketball game. There are more Championship banners and retired jerseys than Collins will see in CU. Weber just can’t recruit. Face it he loses to KU
October 19th, 2005 at 8:30 am
Bill Self should take his fake hair, baby blue polyester pants and matching lounge jacket to to a used car lot. He’s a great salesmen but he don’t ever win squat.
October 19th, 2005 at 8:33 am
I sure am happy Collins decided to come here. I do believe he listens to his coach’s advice, and I believe that Self and Longstreet are well acquainted. That is all part of recruiting. You find contacts, you make inroads (Weber should write this down). There is nothing going on below the table in this or any other KU deal. So, please, I definitely understand you are mourning. But let’s not get ugly with it. Congrats on picking up the 4th and 5th best guards in your backyard. Rock Chalk Jayhawk KU! And see you next year on the recruiting trail… btw, yeah, Gordon’s Dook-bound IMO, and Rose will come to KU if we can put him to good use!
October 19th, 2005 at 8:37 am
I used to think Missouri had the most idiotic fanbase on the planet, then we had to go and steal Illinois’ head basketball coach.
You’re all living in an Orange Colored Fantasy World. Hey, whatever numbs the pain.
October 19th, 2005 at 8:39 am
Quit whining and get over it.
October 19th, 2005 at 8:45 am
First of all, the difference between Illi and Kansas basketball is obvious.
Imagine yourself being a 5-star recruit trying to decide which school to attend. Im sorry but I have to be blunt here…Kansas would be an easy decision. For one reason they already have an excellent team to join and being the first or second best point gaurd in the country joining the two great point gaurds already there the decision is very simple.
Bruce is a good x-o coach but he is just not as respectable as Bill. Bill Self and Kansas basketball is just too good to turn down.
Tradition and extreme fan base is an easy sell to any 5-star recruit. Do you honestly believe Bill Self would recruit against policy rules and belittle the University of Kansas, I hardly doubt it. Illi has to make up 100 years of basketball to contend with the tradition-rich Jayhawks. Sorry folks, its just not going to happen.
To the Illi fans just get over losing Bill and stop making grade school excuses of why a recruit would choose Kansas over Illi. The reasons are plenty and the crimson and blues just dont have the time to explain to a bunch a whiners. CHECK MATE…GAMES OVER BRUCE and the WHINERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
October 19th, 2005 at 8:46 am
I love how all the Jayhawk fans have to prove that Collins DIDN’T want to go to Illinois is Weber’s “squeaky, whiny” voice. That’s as absurd as saying recruits go to KU because Self has hair-plugs (which I know for a fact he does) to cover up his greasy melon! The point is, Self DID have recruiting violations at Illinois, so why is it so unbelievable that he’s not doing the same at Lawerence? If you noticed, there wasn’t a huge uproar from Illinois fans after the Julian Wright debacle, however after another firmly committed recruit turns his back on the U of I, then you MUST start asking questions! Great job Tupp on getting the ball rolling.
P.S. I would love for the Illini to face Self’s K-phew team in the tourney and we’ll put the same beat down on them as we did Bruce Pearl!
October 19th, 2005 at 8:52 am
Bill Self may have recruited the players to Illinois, but Self didn’t take them anywhere in his yrs. at Illinois, but Bruce Weber was able to change the offense, utilize their abilities and talents, and take them to the FF. I am not accusing Bill Self of anything, I personally think he is a good coach, but in the long run, I feel Bruce Weber will do more for Illinois basketball than Bill Self will do for Kansas basketball.
October 19th, 2005 at 9:02 am
Gotta love all the generalizations and single year remarks. Basketball existed for more than the 2004-05 season, but from the sound of it none of you bandwagoneers can write about anything else. This is a preschool discussion from a bunch of kids who are trying to hold onto a season that will never return. I dont blame you, I would try and grab ahold of anything winning at your school. Maybe you could all cheer on your pridefull mascot as he is the only one left putting up a fight, sure isnt Weber.
October 19th, 2005 at 9:12 am
From what I witnessed at Illini Madness, everything is gonna be alright. Frazier is going to be top notch at the point. I am hopeful Eric Gordon and Derrick Rose will commit so they can join Frazier on a very promising Illinois team. The recruiting dilemna is going to take care of itself, sooner than later. Keep up the good work Bruce! Do it your way and everything is going to be okay! Go Illini!
October 19th, 2005 at 9:13 am
You guys are delusional. Articles like this and fan opinions like this will only speed along your slide back to the middle of the pack. We struggled with Roy leaving, got over it, and now have a bright future. Check the small man’s disease at the door and quit whining about getting beat in a recruiting battle. I look forward to your future mediocrity and when you turn on Weber after realizing he is not a good recruiter. I will root for Mizzou for the first time in my life when they play your sorry excuse of a program this year.
October 19th, 2005 at 9:19 am
ha, what a crock! Collins comes to Midnight Madness, has a great time, sees how incredible KU is for himself and commits. You can try to attribute “something fishy” to make yourselves feel better if you like, but sometimes things really are just that cut and dry. That’s cool though, let the conspiracy theories fly you desperate fools!
Collins:
“I’ve never seen anything like it. I never knew people could be that crazy about a basketball team and its players,” Collins told Chicago’s Sun-Times. “Everybody from the coaches to the players and the fans went out of their way to make me feel important.”
October 19th, 2005 at 9:22 am
I have a couple of close friends who are very involved on the inside of the Illini program and have been for 20 years. When Illinois hired Self I shared how excited I was and one of them told me, “Not everyone who can successfully coach a mid-major can successfully coach the upper level talent in Div 1″. Even when Self was recruiting and winnning at Illini they both said that he was smooth talker, a great recruiter, but not a great coach. As former players they both felt that he should have gotten more out of his teams. When he left they felt Illinois would be better in the long run with Weber because Self doesn’t have the character or commitment to stay anywhere long-term. Only time will tell, but over the past 5 years I’m starting to believe that these insiders were right.
October 19th, 2005 at 9:26 am
#47 Tony Lawson is right on! I was at the Arizona game last year with Weber coaching, I was also at the Notre Dame game with Self “coaching”, I saw Weber coach his heart out and I saw Self GIVE UP—Who would you rather have???
October 19th, 2005 at 9:34 am
Listen up my fellow Illini fans, Weber was out recruited on this one. He was out recruited on Rush as well. And I do not have faith that he will land Gordon or Rose. He had a chance at Bolingbrook gaurd Will Walker, and Walker was qouted as saying Illinos was his 1st choice, but they seemed to lose interest in him. So he commited to DePaul. Now this isnt the first recruit to say that they were high on Illinos, only to feel that the program lost interest in them. The question shouldnt be about what Self is doing to land these recruits, but what Weber is doing to lose them. With that said, the program has an excellent pipeline to Peoria, it may not have as many talented players as Chicago(no place does)but those boys can play with the best of them. Peroria’s talent is as good as any in the country.And Illinos doesnt have the best record of landing Chicago public league recruits. Maybe Weber learns from his recruiting mistakes, and benifits from them later on.
And to all you JayHawk fans, Self wasnt that clean here at Illinois, and we here know that, so there is reason for suspicion. But it doesnt mean he is shady now. And as far as Illinos not being up to Kansas level in history, you might be right. But remember this the Illini are 6th all time in winning %. And lately Illinois has been much better than KU.
October 19th, 2005 at 9:42 am
Self was good to Illinois and a good coach. Stop dragging his name through the mud. I’m a lot bigger fan of Weber.
Kansas is a fine school. So are we. Collins picked Kansas. Let’s focus on who we are going to get, not who we have lost. Sherron Collins had no loyalties to Illinois or Kansas, if he is a bad fit there, then we will have a good chance to beat them.
Go Illini.
P.S. Brandon, leave Ron Turner alone. We went to the Sugar Bowl
October 19th, 2005 at 9:42 am
There is no question that we were all upset when Self left for Kansas. Fortunately, Illinois went out and hired a real basketball coach, whi knows how to coach defense, so we no longer have to watch teams light us up from 3 point range (as Indiana during the regular season did and Notre Dame did in the NCAA Tournament when Self was coaching). I think it goes without saying that if Self were still coaching at Illini neither Williams nor Head are first round draft picks. I do not know how either will fair in the NBA, but Weber’s system got them to be drafted so high. In fact, if Self were still here, I wonder if Head would be playing basketball at all.
Hey, Self is a good reruiter. The fact is you can win with decent recruits and good coaching.
Duke always has great teams, but they do not alawys win (and I think Coach K is a great coach). Further, we will see if Scheyer is any good.
To summarize my rambling. The best thing that happened to Illinois basketball is hiring Bruce Weber. He will eventually get enough top recruits. And by then, after Kansas flames out in the NCAA Tournament year after year, Self will be fired, and our only concern will be that Kansas will try to steal another one of our coaches.
October 19th, 2005 at 9:46 am
It hurts so bad doesn’t it UI fans….
October 19th, 2005 at 9:55 am
KU fans, be assured this: Nobody on this board is crying because Bill Self left Illinois. Take a look back through the blog archives…we’ve had the discussions before. Weber is a better coach and will get more out of less than Self. You can keep Self–we upgraded.
October 19th, 2005 at 10:03 am
First, hilarious and hypocritical that Illini fans are 1) accusing other schools of cheating and 2) making light of one bad tournament appearance.
The Lou Henson/Jimmy Collins regime was embarrassing - an indisputable, colossal, chronic, shameless disregard for NCAA rules over many years. Illini fans not only knew it at the time, they shrugged and smirked. And aren’t you the same people who, just last year, were still BITTER about Bruce Pearl, the man who had the guts to blow the whistle on Jimmy Collins? Instead of being embarrassed by the stark reminder of your cheating past, you booed Pearl mercilessly. Perfect. You have no moral standing to point fingers. But you do anyway. Like I said, hilarious.
Second, you can make fun of the Bucknell loss all you want. KU hadn’t lost in the 1st round since 1978. KU went to the Final Four in 2002 and 2003, and were an OT away from three FF’s in a row in 2004. You guys go to the FF for the first time in 16 years, and suddenly you’re tournament aces. You say Bucknell? That’s as relevant as me reminding you of Austin Peay or other tournament flameouts that EVERY school has in its dark history.
Look, there’s no disputing that Bruce Weber is a hell of a coach. And say what you want about Bill Self, he’s taken Tulsa, you guys and KU to an Elite Eight. All three Elite Eight games came down to one possession. So don’t tell me that Smooth, or whatever you call him, can’t coach. And let’s remember that Mr. Weber is yet to establish a consistent tournament history. His SIU team lost in the 1st round to Mizzou, in a year that Mizzou squeaked into the round of 64. Weber was also Gene Keady’s top assistant at Purdue for many, many years. I think we can all agree that Purdue’s tournament record during that time was consistently disappointing given their talent level and regular season success. The way you all worship him, you’d think he was Bobby Knight, John Wooden or Larry Brown. He ain’t. Not yet, at least.
October 19th, 2005 at 10:06 am
As a visitor to one of selfs coaching clinics, I have trouble trusting a man who so compationatly PRAYS with his team before practice and the swears and calls them every name in the book after. good luck with mr split personality out in kansas
October 19th, 2005 at 10:12 am
Nice piece of fiction Tupper. It should help sell the book you have ghost written for BAM. After all, that was your intent, wasn’t it?
October 19th, 2005 at 10:21 am
Hey KU fans:
Congrats on your recruiting victory.
I wish you nothing but the best, and by that I mean for you to have a situation like we had where Self got the talent, and actually left so the talent could be coached.
Good luck on that.
October 19th, 2005 at 10:28 am
I’m amazed by the Kansas trolls who lower themselves by speaking to our non-elite program’s fanbase. I understand that they need to pump themselves up about the one thing that’s gone right in the last year to their program: recruiting at our expense. Especially because their current coach’s former players and their former coach’s current players met in the NCAA finals shortly after their elite program (with a stud like SIMIEN) bowed out in the first round to (laugh) Bucknell.
However, a couple of the “arguments” on both sides of the issue are just wrong. First to some Illinois fans - Bill Self had some rules violations that Illinois reported, but they were all very minor violations that every program commits from time to time. Therefore it does not follow that he cheats now. Second to the Kansas fans, Self cheating now would not necessarily mean he cheated at Illinois. Illinois is under much more scrutiny than other programs due to their sanctions in the early 90’s. The NCAA is also highly suspect when dealing with storied programs like Ohio State football, Kentucky basketball or your crappy jayhawks (graduation bonuses anyone?).
I do agree with the poster who stated that Longstreet had an agenda to push Kansas and we don’t know why. I also agree with the Jayhawk fan who said that building a relationship with the coaches, parents, guardians, etc is important. There are two most likely reasons Longstreet would push Kansas: he is in love with Bill Self or he had his palms greased. I have no proof for either but Bill Self was a terrific recruiter at Illinois where we’re pretty sure he didn’t cheat.
October 19th, 2005 at 10:57 am
When I was a kid, I loved mythology. I still do, actually. It has gods, warriors, monsters, world-ranging adventures, magic, stories about coaches at high-major D1 basketball programs paying recruits even after self-reporting violations committed by previous coaching staffs. I guess I just love the world of make believe.
Also, try to get over the fact that we’re Kansas, and you’re Illinois.
I’ll prepare myself for an awesome Bucknell retort.
October 19th, 2005 at 11:02 am
By the way, #84 owned it. Nice job, Brian.
October 19th, 2005 at 11:08 am
As indicated there is no Illini fan that would want Self back. He is and was a mediocre coach. Frank Williams did not improve under him. Look at Head and D Williams under Webber they improved to such an extent that they are firt rounders in the NBA. Does anyone believe that Self could have improved them to this degree.
Self is under a lot of pressure at Kansas. He knows if he does not perform he is out. So he uses his “con” personality with his feined concern and fake caring to manipulate. It must have killed him to have Illinois in the finals. Must have really eaten him up alive. Whenever I see the smirk on his face I know the real personality is not far from the surface.
October 19th, 2005 at 11:46 am
Hey Kansas fans, what are you going to do when we come steal your basketball talent? Woops strike that, there is no basketball talent in Kansas. HAHAHAHAAHAHA
I guarantee Self will underachieve with the NBA team you’re putting together. I will also go out on a limb and say that within the next 4-6 years, we will win more games than Kansas and go deeper in the tournament every year, just because well you’re Kansas (the elite team that everyone forgot about).
October 19th, 2005 at 11:54 am
I’m amazed by the Kansas trolls who lower themselves by speaking to our non-elite program’s fanbase.
I am amazed that the Illiannoy trolls won’t admit when they get beat in receruiting over and over that it may be something their coach with no flaws has done. It is always the ’someone cheated or paid or…” excuse. Sometimes you just lose battles people. Weber will be fine without this guy, but if he continues to lose receruits from Illinois, watch out Bruce.
and to back me up here, I don’t really care to much either way about Illinois or Kansas. It sure is a funny read though.
October 19th, 2005 at 12:07 pm
Kansas can take Bill Self and his wins in the offseason. We’ll take our wins in March.
October 19th, 2005 at 12:10 pm
Hahahahahahahahahahah! You Illini losers are so funny. Bruce Wooden failed to land another big time recruit so certainly someone had to cheat. I hope Coach Longstreet reads this garbage and tells every kid in Chicago what a sorry bunch you Illini fans are.
October 19th, 2005 at 12:10 pm
man, i wish scheyer and collins would have reverse roles. what i mean is that scheyer instead trusted his coach so much to make the decision for him (weber’s brother, not longstreet) and collins trusted himself so much to make the decision (make the commitment on his unofficial visit to champaign) by himself. it’s weird how some things turn out.
October 19th, 2005 at 12:25 pm
First of all this is a BLOG, this guy’s not a journalist, he has nothing to back any of this up. Illini fans get a grip… you’ve got a pretty good coach in Webber, and he’s a terrible recruiter. You’d better not be getting your hopes up for Rose, because when he bolts I don’t wanna read another bogus story about it being illegal. You’d better hope that Webber can take these 3 and 4 star recruits and make them into something (which all of you claim he can), because he’s not a big time recruiter and never will be. Self left for a better program… Wright left for a better program… and now so did Collins, get over it. Personally I think you guys are just pissed because you see last years Illini team being formed here, only better.
October 19th, 2005 at 12:27 pm
I think you guys did go after Rush (KC), and we got him too, ha ha, ha ha
October 19th, 2005 at 12:29 pm
Three preliminary things:
(1) it is irrelevant that illinois was dirty under henson.
(2) self deserves the credit for recruiting the final four team
(3) self’s teams do well, but for anybody who has watched self teams play, the games are not pretty to watch. he coaches great defensive teams, but offensively, the teams are a mess and frustrating. watching kansas these past two years was like watching illinois during the self years — the games are close, the team struggles to score, but their supreme talent eventually gets them over the top. whether or not this makes self a good or bad coach, who knows? but his teams do well. also, who cares if self cheats? he probably doesn’t. but he probably skates very close the line, as do most of these coaches. this is a sleazy, sleazy business.
which leads me to the more important point. for me what is important is that i feel better with webber as a representative of my university. he seems to be a better coach. but, more important, there simply is no doubt that he is a person i’d rather have coach my children. you need to look no further than their recruiting pitches: self plays the bullshit game, pumping these guys up with what they want to hear; webber is honest and gives them the straight deal. he does not play favorites. he simply treats each of the recruits like the high school kids that they are. his offer is to make these kids better players and better people, assuring them that working hard will get them the playing time they are entitled to. self only regales them with tales of how this recruit will lead them to victory. could be true. but mostly bullshit. but he does seem to be a sweet talker.
tupper wrote an article about how the top coaches ride in these tripped-up cars to visit recruits, while webber shows up in a regular old fuel efficient car. tupper didn’t know what to make of it. but he seemed to be implying: webber will never get these recruits unless he plays this game. that may be true. but that really should not concern us if we care about how the coach represents our university as a person. webber is honest, loyal and seems to deeply care about who his players are as people. it was nice having self around since he made us feel like we were big time players. he plays the game better than anybody. while that seemed great at the time, self demonstrated what it was all about in the end when he left for kansas. there is a reason why the people in carbondale still love webber — he is a real person who deeply cares about what he does and the place that he represents. compare that with self or the guy who self replaced.
webber may never be the recruiter that self is. i used to be concerned about that. now, i don’t really care. i’d rather get behind a coach who i believe is real about everything that he does. he is the constant on this team. i feel very good about that.
October 19th, 2005 at 12:34 pm
I can’t believe all the Kansas losers that obviously have so much time on their hands that they’re visiting opposing schools blogs to talk smack.
Peoria_Hoops: Ron Turner a good coach? What are you smoking? The Bears had one of the lousiest offences in the NFL before he ever came to Illinois. I wondered why we were ever interested in him and it proved to be true. There is no comparison. Weber is the real deal.
Talent wins? KU will take the talent and we can have the great X & O man? I’ll take that deal. Just look at the Olympics and the World Championships. Team play wins. Talent alone gets you no where. That must be how you beat Bucknell!
Chiguy: Illinois hasn’t had a great history recruiting in Chicago. Hard to make inroads when the state university gets trashed by the Chicago media all the time. If the media and coaches had a decent attitude toward the state university instead of feeling they are what makes the state, maybe we’d do better.
#70 Ryan: Collins would have felt just as important if he had made it to the Illini’s Midnight Madness. We don’t have a problem with Collins. It’s those that steered him there knowing it would sway his decision (& I’d bet it’s more than just good recruiting).
#84 Brian: Don’t even bring up the Bruce Pearl thing. We all know what really happened. That was a railroad job. I have a relative that worked at the accused car dealership and he told me how the NCAA came in and only wanted to hear confirmation of their version of the story, but not look at the evidence or hear the real story. That was a witch hunt. If our infractions were evident of a lack of institutional control, then a large % of the best teams in football and basketball would no longer have teams. Look at the Michigan basketball violations if you think I’m kidding.
I’d love to know the truth about what really happened with Collins, but we never will. Bygones. Lets move on. We’ll get our share of recruits. And whoever we get, I have confidence that Weber will bring us winning teams and get us back to the promised land.
Keep up the good reporting Mark! We’ll take all the info you can give us, even if the Hay-jocks don’t like it. Let them go to their own blog. This is Illini land!
October 19th, 2005 at 12:36 pm
I first want to say that i am SC’s cousin. I just wanted to say that remember a verbal is just a verbal. As far as how solid it is remains to be seen. Asso remember that SC still has to play the season out with coach Longstreet. Everyone can take that for what its worth.
October 19th, 2005 at 12:39 pm
It would”ve been nice if he chose Illinois,
but lets not jump to conclusions,
A young kid changes his mind more than his underware, the chicago area loved the run last years team had but the only alegence most fans have are to NotreDame and Michigan sadly
October 19th, 2005 at 12:46 pm
IMO if Collins had not committed on the KU trip but later in the spring as he had recently mentioned - Illinois would have clearly won out.
Since at this time we have no proof - we are left only to assume and wonder. Its good that Tupp puts this out there to potentially smoke out any missteps in this process.
If that was the case and it is discovered (2 BIG ifs) will he attend UI of I after the fallout is still unknown. But Good Work Tupps for printing what clearly many were thinking!
October 19th, 2005 at 12:47 pm
Mark,
Interesting blog entry. Reading comprehension is a skill that many people haven’t mastered yet, obviously. I don’t see anything in your entry that accuses any coach or any program of any wrong doing. You simply stated that in your opinion, Longstreet’s influence played a major part in Sherron’s decision. I agree with that. I also understand the respect you have for Bill Self, which is obvious in many of the pieces you’ve written over the last 5 years. I have to chuckle when I read the comments from KU fans who feel that there is some kind of accusation being made here. I think KU and Self recruited Collins fair and square. I also happen to believe that they did a better job recruiting Anthony “Illinois and Iowa will get their visits” Longstreet as well.
October 19th, 2005 at 1:08 pm
I guess the first question that comes to mind when reviewing Sherron’s decision is why? Sure, maybe a few years ago when Roy Williams was there, Kansas was among the NCAA elite, making deep tournament runs, but never winning.
But watching them since Self’s arrival, I’d have to rate KU as quite possibly the greatest underachievers in college basketball. With tons
of talent (although some of it is overhyped i.e. Giddens), Kansas has looked awful on the road in Big 12 play, and this year they are coming off that Bucknell disaster. The rest of the Big 12 has caught up with and in
some cases surpassed the Jayhawks, who used to have a stranglehold on that conference, and yet Collins would rather go to a program which looks to be on the decline when Illinois is fresh off it’s greatest season in school
history!
October 19th, 2005 at 2:37 pm
Why would Sherron want to go to a school that only sees the final 4 once every decade and a half?
Great season last year Illini,see you again in 16 years.
October 19th, 2005 at 2:47 pm
Any truth to the rumor that SC’s AAU coach just bought a brand new Escalade? And funny his uncle is now on vacation in Hawaii.
Hmmm?
October 19th, 2005 at 3:16 pm
I don’t know about all this BS & Longstreet comedy. I think BS never cheated anyone. He’s just a better recruiter than Weber. Every college coach has their own recruiting strategies. Whatever it is, BS’s strategy works way better than BW’s. However, I do question about BS’s coach ability since his Illinois days. He hasn’t proved himself yet in KU. I hope that trend turns around pretty soon.
October 19th, 2005 at 4:21 pm
Mr. Tupper, I hope you back up your Webber-pandering with some solid facts. Otherwise you should not be posting baseless innuendo on a newspaper’s website.
Self is not dumb enough to pay a coach, especially when he knows all you sharks are out there.
Self is simply the best salesman in college basketball…
October 19th, 2005 at 4:42 pm
The program’s past sins are “irrelevant”. They were exposed as the product of a “witch hunt”. Yeah, whatever. I raised the past to illustrate the hypocrisy of the posts inferring that only cash could’ve persuaded Sherron to sign with KU. Glass houses, baby. You would be the experts on that. And I’m sure that whatever the NCAA nailed the program with in that witch hunt wasn’t the tip of the iceberg or anything. Jimmy Collins was known far and wide as pure filth, the worst representative of the outlaw programs. Bobby Knight openly called out Collins and Henson on numerous occasions; it’s discussed in Season on the Brink. I don’t recall any libel suits being filed.
And the post about how Weber truly cares about the kids, is a credit to the school, we’re so proud to have him - well, we used to say all the same things about good ol’ Roy. “Aw Shucks” is a cultivated image, and Weber works that in his own way just as Roy does.
Finally, I’m dismayed by KU fans who voice blind faith in Self. Most of us will closely watch how Self handles this team, how they develop, the style they play. We were frustrated last year when the team didn’t run; we were told we didn’t have the right personnel, that running would’ve limited Simien’s playing time. Self’s been given the benefit of the doubt for now.
Self’s two predecessors are a Hall of Famer (Brown - perhaps the best game day coach ever) and a future Hall of Famer (Roy). We know good coaching when we see it. I’ve agreed with some of the U of I posters who were critical of Self’s slow it down, win close games style. It hasn’t been easy to watch. Though I’m quite certain that those of you who now wish him good riddance were plenty upset when he left.
October 19th, 2005 at 6:04 pm
Hey, #89:
I definitely know you believe in mythology and in make believe, if you think that Bill Self will bring a national championship to Kansas.
October 19th, 2005 at 6:17 pm
I for one am so tired of B.S. U hope that Kansas gets knocked out of the tournament in the first round of the tourney next year. Collins should have at least made his visit to Illini homecoming this weekend. This is a shocking decision. We had better land Derrick Rose and Eric Gordon to make up for this one. Weber must land the big fish and it better be soon!
October 19th, 2005 at 6:20 pm
I can see why Tupper would think this whole thing sounds a little werid. I mean if you have never been to Allen Fieldhouse and experienced the passion for KU basketball before, I can see how this whole thing sounds fishy. As a KU fan I know whats it like going to a “late night at the phog” and seeing the passion of the fans…its second to none (not holding anything against duke or UNC).
The problem with HS recruiting isn’t with Kansas alone. The pressure these coaches face is something we could never grasp as fans. There is to much money handed to these HS coaches with shoe deals and other perks.
Collins coming to Kansas might surprise everyone else who hasn’t been to Allen Field house, but it doesn’t surprise anyone from Kansas.
The remarks about BS not being a good coach is something left to be seen. I can’t say he is or isn’t, but I know the team had some issues after Roy boy left and I don’t think BS ever had the full team behind him. That is well known in Kansas. I guess give him 3-4 years with his players and if he doesn’t make the final 4 in that time….I guess we will know the answer. He has the talent and the players who he wanted in his system now….no excuses now.
Just so people who are not KU basketball fans know……Jarret Jack from Georgia Tech played at Allen last year and during the game, in which KU came from behind to win in one of the loudest places I have ever been too…he said to Keith Langford, “I can see why you came here to play…this is amazing” Allen Fieldhouse is a place that can turn heads….and maybe minds of HS athletes
October 19th, 2005 at 7:54 pm
1) I’m sick of hearing Kansas fans disrespecting Weber. It’s really classless. You don’t hear UNC fans ridiculing Bill Self, even though they have a lot more to gloat about than you. I would expect better from fans of such a storied program.
2) I’m also tired of worrying about getting commitments from so-and-so or what’s-his-face. Things will take care of themselves. Honestly, players like Rose or Gordon would be more up Weber’s alley than Collins, judging from the types of players he’s recruited. And I think we can all be excited about our freshmen, who are prime examples of why the number of stars attached to your name doesn’t matter.
3) We can be suspicious (or unsuspicious), but we shouldn’t jump to conclusions– in either direction.
4) But most importantly, we should all wait on judging how well Weber (and Self) recruit for a little bit. When you don’t get results with your incoming stars, you get fewer stars in the future– just look at Tommy Amaker. And when you turn mid-tier players into all-stars, the all-stars start coming– look at Jim Calhoun, or what Craig Tiley did with the Illinois tennis program. Self was handed a lot of great players twice but failed to reach the highest level. If he can’t take this batch of players to the Final Four, he’ll have a very hard time selling the program in a couple of years. And if Weber can just show another one or two seasons of really developing his players, he’ll solidify a reputation as one of the best teachers enough to get over the hump with some of these recruits, as well as to expand recruiting nationally.
So the point is, we all just need to shut our traps, stop arguing, and wait and see.
Oh, and don’t forget– college basketball is supposed to be fun, right?
October 19th, 2005 at 7:57 pm
The comment of Coach Longstreet that Collins can’t go wrong with Kansas is a stretch. When Scheyer decided on Duke one could say..can’t go wrong with Duke and Coach K, true enough. But can you say the same about Kansas with Self. I doubt it. Self is completely unproven, does he make his players better? The Kansas team I saw in the tournament was inept and with all those top recuits. Self is no Coach K and Collins or any recuit should be concerned about anyone who claims “you are the missing piece”…hogwash.
October 19th, 2005 at 8:09 pm
It’s interesting that the KU fans here continue to think that Tupper is insinuating a dirty deal when he says nothing of the sort. Could this be that the KU fans know more about Bill Self than they’re willing to admit?
Point #2: KU fans seem to think that Illinois owes Self something for recruiting the players that almost brought home a national championship. However, KU fans were more upset over Williams leaving than Illinois fans were upset over Self leaving. It were the players that Williams recruited that lost to BUCKNELL.
October 19th, 2005 at 8:57 pm
Bill Self is a fake….he swore he would not use Illinois as a stepping stone….boom, he was gone…he wears a hairpiece also. That is why he self consciously always rubs the back of his head during games!
October 19th, 2005 at 9:18 pm
Hey, 114 — you’re “sick of hearing Kansas fans disrespecting Bruce Weber?” You’re sick? Try to have a sense of irony and realize how stupid you sound.
Brian(110), you’re my boy.
By the way, some words from Longstreet:
“[Illinois] did a fine job recruiting Sherron, they really did,” said Longstreet. “Dee Brown, Luther Head, Deron Williams, Sherron talked to all those guys and is tight with them. They did all they could do. But when he visited Kansas, it was just a totally different feeling. It’s like falling in love with a woman. You can’t help the feelings that you have for her, you can’t explain it, that’s what is was like for Sherron and Kansas.”
When it was mentioned that there are rumors and articles being written that suggest he played an overly influential role in his point guard’s recruitment, Longstreet turned defiant.
“I love the University of Illinois. I’ve lived here all my life. I’m going to have to live in Illinois after Sherron goes to college. That stuff is just crazy, who’s saying that,” Longstreet asked. “Before he went to Kansas, all Sherron knew was Illinois and Iowa. Those were the only schools he had seen. And it was like a totally different experience when he went to Kansas.”
October 19th, 2005 at 10:28 pm
118– I was sick of Kansas fans well before this whole affair because a handful of them have been trying to lord it over Illinois fans for two years because our coach left to become your coach. Weber can’t make a single mistake without Kansas fans popping up all over the internet betting Illinois fans wished they still had Self. It seems to me to be gratuitously hateful, and I think a lot of the Self-bashing you hear from Illini fans is in reaction to it, not just losing recruits. I understand that most Kansas fans probably aren’t that obnoxious, and I apologize for the criticisms of Self that fall below the belt, but it’s been something that’s bothered me for a long time, and it’s changed me from someone who sort of liked Kansas to someone who can’t stand you guys.
October 19th, 2005 at 10:58 pm
Maybe I’m missing somehting here.
Does this blog say a word about improprieties involving KU? I just read it 3 times, and I don’t see it anywhere.
All I see is a question about how and why an outside influence can get so involved in a kid’s decision that the kid apparently lost the power or the ability to make his own mind up.
No one’s sayig KU cheated here.
You guys having reading comprehension issues, or was the war cry at phog.net a little premature? Or are you just on the defensive a little?
Now that you’ve all sworn Self doesn’t cheat, it kinda makes me wonder why you’re so adamant about trying to convince us.
October 19th, 2005 at 11:28 pm
Obviously something happened, improper or otherwise with Collins, kids in their teens can barely decide what they want for lunch from one minute to the next, let alone what college they will choose. Weber and staff need to learn from this experience and the next time it is a similar situation, they need to close the deal with the kid and not let it get far enough to the point at which Lawrence, Kansas, is on the itinerary after leaving Champaign. What Longstreet said, if it is accurate, certainly has some merit. After all… who among us could resist KU after personally watching those compelling highlight reels from last season involving Missouri, Oklahoma State , and Bucknell at the end of the season? I mean, WOW !!
October 20th, 2005 at 3:08 am
Tupper, you are exactly right in what you said in Thursday’s article.
It is Sour Grapes. Plain and simple.
Collins never gave a “soft verbal” in July.
All you have done with your articles and blogs is try to discredit Kansas and Longstreet.
Though you never came out and said it, you certainly implied that something illegal was going on in Collins’ recruitment.
I would think someone with you experience would come at this issue with alittle more class and more facts. Not just speculation and rumors.
Sour Grapes it is.
October 20th, 2005 at 5:10 am
Mark:
When I read the blog yesterday I was pleased to see a long overduearticle concerning sleazy recruitment methods. Today I am disappointed that the followup is a toning down on article, rather than a followup.
It is no secret of the methods being employed by some to get players at any cost, and I, as well as others thought that someone finally arrived to try to be informative of the goings on in recruitment.
Coach Self has, according to articles I have read on various sites, hired parent or relative, or coach of a recruit to get them on board.
Roy Williams, another good recruiter, had over 20 violations at KU, and yet, the KU football program was hammered by NCAA, not the guilty team (basketball program).
Michigan and Ohio State have been documented for cheating, and the NCAA has done nothing (schools self imposed penalties supposedly good enough to keep NCAA from doing their duty).
Notre Dame also was given a “free pass” a few years ago by NCAA for their misconduct.
The cheating and sleaze will cease only when someone has enough guts to take the NCAA and guilty schools to task. I hoped that your blog was the jump off of such a mission, so I am disappointed in the toning down followup.
Mitch
October 20th, 2005 at 9:01 am
Williams + UNC = National Champs
Weber + UofI = National Runner-up
Self + KU = Bucknell
October 20th, 2005 at 9:40 am
I don’t think today’s article was a toning-down, so much as it was a clarification of the blog’s content…which everyone took completely wrong and blew it out of proportion. The title alone says it and the content backs it up…”Collins Decision Puzzling”…it doesn’t say “Self, KU Pay Collins to Attend”.
#124 is spot-on. Self is an overacheiver at recruiting and an underachiever at coaching.
October 20th, 2005 at 9:42 am
Get over it you losers. For you people to even think your program is can be mentioned in the same breath as KU/Duke/NC/Kentucky, you need to have your heads examined. Look flat out the kid got has a better opportunity at a school that will get him into the NBA… How many Illini players in the NBA today? There are 2x as many ‘Hawks as there are Illini.
October 20th, 2005 at 10:16 am
Bill would never break the rules our hire someone as his lead recruiter who did.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/cbasketball/176969_locke09.html
…..Now it is time for you to decide: Is it a happy story or a dirty story? Is Townsend so remarkably good with the kids that Crawford told the Stewart twins they had to play for him at USC? Did the Stewart twins tell the same to Giles? Is he so charismatic that Giles was willing to follow him to three different schools?
Or does it reek? Is this the grubby world of college basketball where AAU coaches, high school coaches and high school athletic directors are funneling kids to one coach who is in turn scratching their backs? Or is this an assistant coach whose recruiting pitch is so good players can’t resist going wherever he is calling from?
October 20th, 2005 at 11:18 am
As a Kansas Alum, I’ve been to a few hundred KU games. I’ve also been to a few Illinois games. It is impossible to decribe the atmosphere in KU’s Allen Field House. The arena is built acoustically to reverberate all sound back to the court. It has been measured and the loudest college basktball arena in terms of decibles, louder than that of a Jet ariplane. Illinois doesn’t come close to how loud Allen Field House is. Top it all off as too the fact that players are treated almost as if they are GODS to the KU Fans, and the energy and emotion of Late Night at AFH, and few recruits turn down the opportunity. Weber’s mistake was not to get the deal done and keep Sherman away from AFH. How do you think we got Kirk Heinrich, Nick Collison, Drew Gooden, Paul Pierce, etc. to go there? If you ever have the opportunity, go see a KU game at AFH, then you’ll understand.
October 20th, 2005 at 11:45 am
I think it’s funny that same guy that 18 months ago was suggesting UIUC find a way to help Justin Dentmon get out of his SIGNED COMMITMENT to ISU is now crying foul that UIUC lost out on a recruit that was not signed and at best softly verballed. There’s no rule against recruiting people who verballed. There is a rule against recruting people who are signed.
I also think it’s funny that everyone thinks it’s okay for Mr. Tupper to print baseless, fact-free accusations because this is a BLOG. It probably shouldn’t come under the header of Decatur Herald Tribune then. It should probably come under the My Own Home Page header. If I were the editor I be concerned about my paper’s liability for slander.
I also think it’s funny that people say Weber can’t recruit. To me, high school rankings are only barely relevant. You’re a good recruiter if you win with the guys you recruit. So far Weber’s done nothing but WIN. In fact,Weber must be one heck of a good coach cause he doesn’t lose too many games.
Make no mistakes. I’m no KU fan and I am a Weber fan. I think it’s funny though that Tupper calls himself a sportswriter. I’d call him a fact-free editorialist.
October 20th, 2005 at 1:48 pm
Why don’t you talk about how Meachum and Arnold knew they had a spot on the UI team before they decided to transfer from Dayton and ISU. You can then talk about openly recruiting Dentmon while under scholarship at another school. Finally you can discuss the coincidence that Wayne Mcclain got a job with u of i around the time of his sons recruitment to u of i. How’s that for innuendos.
October 20th, 2005 at 1:57 pm
Illinois is the best program in the nation at finishing second among 5 star recruits. I blead orange and blue, but as much as I hate to say it. We are probably in for a similiar story with Gorden and Rose.
October 20th, 2005 at 2:30 pm
I wanted to take a couple of days before I responded because I didn’t want to fly off the handle. I have lived in Kansas and have seen the hero-worship accorded to the basketball program. However, I have also seen the Orange Krush…need I say more.
For all those who are accusing Mark of calling BS a cheat…I guess you guys weren’t reading the paper when BS was at Illinois. Mark was a HUGE BS supporter. When BS left and went to Kansas, many of the Illini Nation were calling for his scalp…er…wig. Mark was the guy who wrote very sympathetically about how BS struggled with the decision. When the Illini Nation were talking about how classless BS was for leaving withoug meeting with the team, it was Mark who wrote and explained the details. Therefore, when Mark questions the recruiting process it carries more weight with me because he has always been fair in his dealings with BS and he says that BS was always fair with him. In fact, if I remember correctly, he wrote that no coach was every better to the press than BS.
Just to sum it up…I didn’t see Mark accusing BS of anything…he was talking about the undue influences on a High School kid on where he would go to college.
October 20th, 2005 at 2:48 pm
Mark,
I’d say Weber is a top notch recruiter in finding players under the radar and overlooked by many elite teams. Chet the Jet is one good example. Prima Donas do not last as long - as they do not truly understand team concepts, making sacrifices to make the team better for the long haul, and have the character and mind-set to be a true classic winner on and off the court.
October 20th, 2005 at 4:00 pm
Mark my words, Self will leave KU after the 2007/8 season-as a result of being fired due to poor tourney performances, similiar to last seasons embarrassment to Bucknell.
Self will go down-and forever be associated-with the likes of Tarkanian, Harrick-to name a few…
October 20th, 2005 at 4:09 pm
#128: Top it all off as too the fact that players are treated almost as if they are GODS to the KU Fans, and the energy and emotion of Late Night at AFH, and few recruits turn down the opportunity. Weber’s mistake was not to get the deal done and keep Sherman away from AFH.
At least get his name right. (It’s Sherron by the way.)
October 20th, 2005 at 4:25 pm
The rumor in the college basketball community is that Anthony Longstreet is Chicago’s “new Sonny Cox. You pay for a campus visit and a home visit. Have heard it more than once.
October 20th, 2005 at 4:45 pm
Kansas has been pulling basketball players out of Illinois for the last 50 years. I don’t see what the big deal is.
Some examples, Charlie Hoag Oak Park 1952 NCAA champs and 1952 Olympic Gold in hoops. Hoag was on the 53 Final Four team but had to sit out with a FB injury.
KU’s 1971 Final Four team was led by Dave Robisch, Springfield and another starter was Roger Brown of Chicago.
KU’s 74 Final Four Team started 4 guys from Illinois and six of the top 7. Norm Cook Lincoln, Roger Morningstar East Dundee, Dale Greenlee Rockford and Tom Kivisto Aruora. Kivisto just gave KU $10,000,000 for Football. Rick Suttle of East St. Louis and Tommy Smith from Kewanee were the first guys off the bench.
Kivisto’s brother, Bob played for KU. Their father was Ernie, one of the legendary HS coaches in Illinois
1988 Champs started Jeff Geuldner from Charleston.
Roy had a couple of players from Chicago. Sean Pearson and Marlon London. We even had a transfer, Rex Walters transfered from Northwestern and started on the 93 final four team.
There were some like Rich Bradshaw Chicago that didn’t do much and others Rodney Hull Chicago and Altino(sp) Campbell that played some on the 86 Final Four team before transferring.
If I wasn’t to lazy to find a media guide I bet I could find another 10-15. Jerry Conangelo (sp) owner of the Suns and Diamondbacks played a year at KU before transfering to the UofI.
I will even toss out a black sheep. Bob Hickman, former Director of the Tollway, convicted for something and went to jail. He played at KU.
Went to more Final Fours and Olympics then if they would of stayed home. Weber needs to change that perception.
I did find it kind of ironic that your A.D. said he hired Ron Zook because he was a proven recruiter.
October 20th, 2005 at 6:20 pm
Uh, boner, Wayne got the job after his son graduated. And Sergio was recruited by Lon, not BS, so I’m not sure what BS giving Wayne a job has to do with Sergio choosing Illinois.
Oh, and how do you know Meechum and Arnold knew they had spots at UI?
October 20th, 2005 at 10:29 pm
An important thing to point out here is that Chicago is arguably the most fertile ground in the nation for basketball talent…it’s a given that other teams are going to land recruits from here. Sure, it hurts to lose Top 10 players to out of state, but the law of numbers—recruiting ability of the coaches in question aside—says it’s going to happen.
I have no statistics whatsoever to back this up—in the spirit of full disclosure—but I wouldn’t at all be surprised if the state of Illinois has more players in D1 than any other state in the union.
Tupper–write something new! I, for one, am tired of the Collins hoopla. It’s over with, let’s focus on who we CAN get.
October 21st, 2005 at 6:59 am
Just a few observations on all this madness:
1) On the primary topic, I think that its admirable that the kid’s high school coach is willing to be helpful in his college choice, especially when (I guess) there is no father figure around. It sure beats his AAU coach, or some other hanger-on.
2) We’ll know precisely how admiriable it was fairly shortly, I expect. If Mr. Longstreet becomes surprisingly wealthy for a high school coach (I’d have to guess not likely), or (more likely) if he ends up as an assistant at KU or at one of the other school’s where Bill’s friends are (Texas A&M and St. John’s, I believe), then maybe something was rotten in Denmark.
3) It appears to me that people in Kansas have far too much time on their hands, coming over to an Illinois blog to blow off steam. And who knew there were so many computers in Kansas?
4) I got a huge laugh out of the blogger who put Kansas in the same class as Duke, UNC, and Kentucky. Now who’s living in the Phog? One national title since 1953, and a bit more about that one below. I live in the South, with alums from all 3 of those schools, and they would take great offense to the suggestion that Kansas is in their league - and they have the titles to back it up. I know for a fact that they rejoice when they see Kansas as an opposing seed in their bracket.
5) Two observations about KU’s last two titles - the 1988 one was led (one might say entirely caused by) Danny Manning, a North Carolina lad whose dad, a truck driver, mysteriously ended up as a KU “assistant.” And in the 1953 tourney, you’ll never guess who was 3rd - Illinois.
I’ll close by saying the same thing I usually say when I see a KU alum - “I’ll have the Number 1, with a Diet Coke”.
October 21st, 2005 at 7:05 am
K.U. or Illinois? No brainer folks. I am from Illinois and went to school at Kansas. I can assure you that any sane Basketball recruit would and should chose K.U. over Illinois any day of the year. Please tell me about the wonderful Basketball tradition at Illinois. Besides, K.U. is a much eaiser sell to any talented Basketball recruit. That is the bottom line. And in response to #134 - What did Roy Williams acomplish at K.U.? That is right, no Championships BUT he was only the winningest coach in the NCAA during his tenure and he had mostly class kids who valued their education as well as the honor of representing K.U. You may be right, Self may be fired but let me ask you this, how many K.U. coaches have been fired in the past?
October 21st, 2005 at 7:56 am
I don’t want the best players, I want the RIGHT players!
October 21st, 2005 at 7:56 am
Time for a new blog Tupp’s these ku guys are driving me crazy.
October 21st, 2005 at 7:58 am
I wonder if the words “libel” and “slander” mean anything to Tupper? How about “criminal defamation” or “malicious”? When is someone in the Illini nation going to blame Weber for a colossal screw-up instead of blaming everyone else? And how can Roy Williams and Self be worshipped one second by their schools, and hated forever the next? Just a few thoughts.
October 21st, 2005 at 9:48 am
Mr. Tupper,
After reading your blog, you are missing some important pieces of information. Collins also wanted to commit when he was in Lawrence last weekend. Longstreet told him not to. He said he should go home and sleep on it. This is not manipulation. It is a coach giving a fickle kid sound advice. Collins wanted to commit to the Illini when he was on campus and he wanted to commit to Self when he was on campus. Rather than letting Collins make a decision when he was caught up in the moment (a decision he may well have regretted), he wisely told him to return to his home environment and make the decision.
Could it be that Collins and Longstreet have noticed Bruce Weber’s inability to recruit top talent. I will grant you that he coach last years team very well. Maybe if Weber could have kept Scheyer, Wright, and Livingston, Collins would have felt better about the talent that was going to be around him. The kid is obviously not afraid to compete for playing time. I respect that. Rather than being promised the starting point guard spot, he committed to a program that will have 2 guys who could start ahead of him.
I really hope Weber gets Rose and Gordon, but please don’t be shocked when people chose not to go the basketball mecca that is Chambana.
October 21st, 2005 at 9:49 am
Illini fan, please explain something to me.
Was Bill Self a dirty recruiter during his tenure at Illinois? Were Brown, Augustine, Williams, etc. paid improper benefits?
I’m sure you’d say “NO”. In fact, I’m certain they were NOT.
Answer this question.
If Self wasn’t dirty at Illinois, why does he need to be dirty at Kansas?
And remember the words of a wise old man, “You can lie to me, but don’t lie to yourself.”
October 21st, 2005 at 10:00 am
The frustration exhibited in this blog is a sympton of the root question: Why can’t we keep Chicago kids in-state? This is an underlying recruiting problem Illinois has been battling for decades in both football and basketball. When we lose recruits after a 2nd place NCAA finish and with Bruce Weber as coach,we’ve got core recruiting problems with the Chicago base. It’s easy to blame Bill Self but that’s addressing the symptom not the problem. I don’t have the answer but if someone can solve it we’ll being hanging national championship banners left and right.
October 21st, 2005 at 11:49 am
I believe it is time we talk about something else and let the talk about Sherron Collins’ recruitment go. But before I do, let me bring up two important points:
1. John Brumbaugh today put up a remark made by Chicago Simeon head coach Robert Smith to Kedric Prince in an interview yesterday. Smith is saying the Big 10 style of basketball has recruits looking elsewhere. He went on to say that his kids wouldn’t be interested in playing that style.
My response to that remark is this: If the Big 10’s basketball style is not impressive, how is it there is at least one representative from the Big 10 in the Final Four every other year? In what was supposed to have been the Big 10’s “down” year last year, 2 of the 4 Final Four representatives were out of the Big 10. If it is slow to a basketball spectator, fine. But I will say it gets the job done. Isn’t it about execution? The great John Wooden saw Illinois’ ability to execute in his classic tournament last year and was VERY impressed. What people are forgetting is that basketball is a TEAM sport. One player can dictate a game a la Michael Jordan but Jordan could not have won the championships unless he had four other teammates there to help him. And look at the likes of Duke and Kansas. The way these teams run their plays is no different from the way Big 10 teams run their plays. It is about execution.
I hope it doesn’t affect Derrick Rose’s decision in where he should go. But in the world of recruiting, one never knows where one is going until he makes the announcement. But moving on…
2. People need to go to the link brought up by Dave S. (#38). For Illinois fans like myself, this article should bring some concern. Great job, Dave S.! Now I see why so many recruits who were talking about going to Illinois have turned down Illinois. Being an U of I alum, I’m not too happy with the approach. I understand Bruce Weber’s honest approach, but one sentence sticks out. Just read Charles Jackson’s reaction to it when he was recruited by Weber. Someone get back with me when they read it.
But for now, I’ll continue to monitor the world of basketball recruiting. Keep the info coming, Mark, no matter what someone says!
GO ILLINOIS!
October 21st, 2005 at 1:04 pm
Enough. Hey Paul in Atlanta. I assure you that when you come to my home or office to clean my toilet I will not make fun of you or your Illinois education. Does it make you feel better to put down people with a University of Kansas education? By the way K.U IS in the same class as UNC, Duke, and Kentucky. No they do not have the same number of Championships but look at the win totals. By the way - You are from Atlanta. HOW BOUT THEM BRAVES! Get a clue.
October 21st, 2005 at 1:53 pm
Here’s the real story: Sherron was walking by an alley in Lawrence and Bill Self from the darkness said, “Psst,hey kid, want to try something new;” and Sharron, in an induced semi-conscious state agreed to play for Kansas. They do that with football players in Miami, USC and Oklahoma too, cheating KU out of these great players who otherwise would attend KU. Really, think about it, KU is one of the primer programs in the country as is UNC and Kentucky, the latter two of which came to prominence from two coaches from KU. Give Collins, Self, Longstreet and UI a break and understand that Sherron did what was best for him. Recruiting is a pretty cutthroat business with each enity doing what is good for themselves, including UI. Self is yet unproven in taken a team to the top but certainly is a master at recruiting. All this bickering is going to make a good match-up for a KU-UI meeting someday.
October 21st, 2005 at 2:53 pm
It’s hard when you loose a coach. But you get over it and you move on. But lets face it, Kansas is reloading and Illionis is rebuiling. Regardless of who recruited who, a top team over the past couple decades will reload with high quality talent as opposed to a D1 school working their way up. That’s just the way it goes. You win some you loose some.
October 21st, 2005 at 3:03 pm
As for the recruiting violations being cited while Self was at U of I, here’s an article from the Lawrence Journal-World from July 2003. These were self reported and the kind of violations that every program has, including Bruce Weber’s squeaky clean program. These were not exactly major.
If you want to call Bill Self a cheater, then produce the evidence. Mr. Tupper, go ahead and research the issue. If you have proof, by all means send it to the NCAA. I am a KU fan, and if Self is cheating, then I want him to resign. But I’m not going to buy this unsubstantiated hogwash that from fans who are still upset about Self leaving them.
http://www.kusports.com/news/mensbball_archive/story/107463
October 21st, 2005 at 3:45 pm
Mr Tupper:
In your haste to chastize Collins for not sitting next to you on the Weber bandwagon, you also basically dimed out Illinois on a — at minimum — secondary recruiting violation when the staff confirmed for you that Collins wasn’t taking its calls.
NCAA rules prohibit schools from commenting on recruits until after they sign a letter of intent. That day is almost 3 weeks away.
It’s one thing to be a blatant homer. It’s another to incur an NCAA reprimand for Illinois in doing so
October 21st, 2005 at 4:22 pm
1) Why are there KU fans in this blog??
Cause this “article” has been posted on both KU and the KC Star’s websites.
2) If Bill Self was such a “greasy” coach, then why were you IU fans trying so hard to convince him to stay?
3) KU has more players in the NBA that have continued their rise to superstars then Duke (Pierce, LaFrenz, Gooden, Collison, Hinrich, Osterteg, Pollard…should I continue?)
4)KU is in the same league as Duke, NC, KY, AZ. There is no doubt. You’d have to convince otherwise, and I mean with stats, not with “I have Duke friends that would be insulted…blah, blah, blah”.
Finally, this blog, article, etc…is not reporting. This Tupper guy needs to report “facts”. He hasn’t done that. He’s insinuating his opinion that “something” is out of place. Wrong, the kid fell in love with KU. You all would had you gone to KU and went to a game there.
See you in March.
October 21st, 2005 at 5:06 pm
I’m ashamed…yep, ashamed. Ashamed of MYSELF. I’ve been dumb enough to like my school, my team and my coach. What a dumb ass I must be. After reading all of this …stuff, I have been a fool to be interested in college basketball and actually enjoy it. I can’t anymore. Not after perusing all this drivel from BOTH sides. We have a war going on, hurricanes blowing people away and half the world wants to kill us. And I turn to sports for a break. And what do I get almost every time is having to read this internet bull s**t. This recruiting stuff is the most sleazy, disgusting and cutthroat crap I’ve seen in my 55 years–45 of which I have spent being a die hard Illini fan….a name we’ll have to drop soon, ya know. But that’s another story. I am truly AMAZED that according to some hack, Weber is an idiot for telling kids the TRUTH!! If THAT’S the case, I’m checking out. I ain’t reading anymore so-called articles about it. You mean to tell me that if Illinois wants to be competetive in this sport, our coach has to lie? Or at least stretch the truth? I don’t want any part of that nonsense at all. Some folks say Bill Self is cheating. I, for one, don’t think so at all. There is no NCAA rule against recruiting the kid’s family or his coach. I don’t like it, but, too f’n bad, right KU fans? And the KU people are correct, they do have a storied tradition that we don’t have, but we are trying to build one. Unfortunately, Coach Self hasn’t proven anything other than he can recruit. The proof will come in a couple of years whether he can win or not. The opposite is true for Coach Weber, he has to prove that he can get the proper recruits here to continue to win consistently. So, he hasn’t got all the big names we wanted..yes, me,too…I’ll admit it. But that was before I read all of this blog crap. Again, the proof will be a couple of years down the line..then we will see. In the meantime, I have to decide if I can stand to watch knowing how most of these children, and they are still children ya know, have been lied to, manipulated and used by adults who are looking out for only themselves. Not neccessarily the college coaches(although some of them are guilty-I don’t think either one of the men we are talking about are), but those sleazy bas***ds behind the scenes, whether it’s a relative, HS coach, rich booster or just some hanger-on. They make me want to to do a couple of things…strangle them or just puke. Since, I don’t want to go to jail or hell, I guess I’ll just vomit! Mark, for God’s sake, write something else and let’s move on ..PLEASE?? This is bringin’ me down, man!! By the way, Kansas is not in the Big Ten, so I have no animosity for them. I save that for our conference opponents. Good luck and if we are both fortunate to get what we want, maybe, just maybe, we can meet for the big one someday…if I can still care after all of this.
October 21st, 2005 at 7:28 pm
Thank you Jeff Irvine for your vomit. I think that sums up the way most of us feel.
Also, for those Jayhawks out there losing points for incorrect abbreviations, if Illinois is IU then UK is Kansas. Just letting you know…
October 21st, 2005 at 8:29 pm
If we’re going on all time victories…
Illinois is #15 on the all time list (through the 2004 season, and #14 depending on how many games Princeton won this year)…not too bad for a “program that shouldn’t be mentioned in the same breath as UNC/Duke/KU.
There’s pretty good company in the top 15…
Kentucky
UNC
KU
Duke
St John’s
Syracuse
Temple
Penn
Indiana
Notre Dame
Utah
UCLA
Oregon St
Princeton
Illinois
October 22nd, 2005 at 5:52 am
No. 149 - Since KU alums seem to want to bash our basketball program, I just thought I’d point out certain more important weaknesses in their institution. And considering that KU is just above the University of Alabama in academic standing (you can check out US News for that), I would suggest that makes you the more likely toilet cleaner.
As for your shot at the Braves, I guess they are a lot like Kansas - a lot of wins, and precious few titles. I can’t deny, though, that I have enjoyed the 14 straight division titles. But if you are from Kansas, I guess you always have those Royals to fall back on.
October 23rd, 2005 at 4:27 pm
How ironic is it that illannoy fans are complaining about illegal recruiting tactics?
your school has cheated more than any other program in history.
The kettle is calling the pot black.
October 23rd, 2005 at 8:39 pm
Hey all you KU fans who found your way to Tuppers Blog (there must not be one good enough in Kansas to respond to) You misunderstand us Illini fans if you say “sour grapes” which you did about 20 times. We are GLAD Bill Self is at Kansas and Bruce Weber is at Illinois. Congratulations, you win the national championship of recruiting! You still have to get past Bucknell when your all-star recruits step onto the floor. Good Luck with Slick Billy. No sour grapes here - more like “watch your back”.
October 23rd, 2005 at 8:48 pm
Hey 97, Tupper writes for Decatur Herald and has only covered the Illini for about 30 years and is considered one of the best authorities on Illini Sports. His “BLOG” certainly got your attention. DOLT!
October 23rd, 2005 at 9:06 pm
“Meanwhile, Illinois has seen countless so-called four- and five-star recruits turn their head from the continual Big Ten powerhouse for bigger and brighter pastures.” (from the article about BW recruiting) One question; If these 4 and 5 star recruits are so important to a programs success, why are the Illini referred to in this article as “the continual Big Ten powerhouse”? I thought we didnt get the good recruits. How is it possible that Illinois has dominated the Big 10 over the past few years. I wonder if coaching has anything to do with it. I’ll take results over prospects any day.
October 24th, 2005 at 5:54 am
Tup,I love your articles.I have a question about Manual Cass and his recruiting,Are we on him,and is he interested in us.I thought we were after him but his name is not on our prospects list.You have any info,thanks in advance.
October 24th, 2005 at 10:45 am
Tony (#124): your little “equation” is the best post above.
Congratulations Tupps - this one sets a new record number of responses to anything you’ve ever posted, and it must be very gratifying to see so many Hayjock fans chipping in their two cents.
Apparently that first-round loss to Bucknell was alot harder on them than we thought . . .
Listen up Hayjock fans - I’ve said it before, but since none of you can apparently READ, I’ll say it again: WE’RE NOT WHINING.
We’re GLOATING, you morons.
Ya’ll can HAVE Bill Self, and if you want to see some REAL whining, just go back to your own Phog Blog and check out all the moaning and groaning that was posted when old Roy left for UNC.
Ya’ll can HAVE Sherron Collins too, because we’re all too busy being excited about our COACH to care.
By the way . . . while you’re back in the Phog Blog, you will notice that Bill Self doesn’t receive even half the support from KU fans that Bruce Weber gets every day right here in this little, insignificant blog.
One final word of advice to you Hayjock fans: next time you feel like giving us Illini fans a piece of your mind, make sure you have enough to spare.
October 26th, 2005 at 2:55 pm
If any of you had ever stepped foot into Allen Fieldhouse, you would know why Collins would commit. Kansas IS basketball.
October 29th, 2005 at 1:25 pm
What. no comments since your cheating arse Illini program was placed on probation. I know, I know. “It was the FOOTBALL team.” Well, same athletic department. Same school. Probably the same compliance people.
SERVES YOU RIGHT.
BWAAAA HAAA HAAA HAAA!!!
November 5th, 2005 at 1:25 pm
weber is a good coach
November 5th, 2005 at 9:51 pm
hey 161 THIS is a blog..the only reason we care is because we don’t like people insinuating that we have a dirty program… with NO EVIDENCE… you’re probably referred to as a continual Big Ten powerhouse in this article because (just taking a guess) it was written by an Illini homer…. great coaching will get you absolutley squat if you don’t have the talent on the court, if you don’t believe me, just wait a couple years… Keep bringing up Bucknell, cause it’s the only legitimately bad thing that can be said, even though this is basketball, and upsets happen every year
November 16th, 2005 at 10:57 am
Well, the proof is the pudding. Check out the New York Times today and you will see that a Kansas Basketball sophmore received thousands of dollars in cash from a booster….That said, Bruce W. needs to reassess his approach to recruiting. I am not in a panic, but we need to start to get a top 25 recruit or two every year. Dont forget Illinois missed on Bobby Frazor, a UNC recruit, as well as the other names mentioned.
November 22nd, 2005 at 8:34 pm
Everyone in the city of Chicago knows, the inner city kids dont go to U of I because they dont pay like other programs. Self isnt that great of a coach. He’s never won anything. He had a team @ Illinois with 3 All-Americans and couldnt win and wen to kansas and lost to bucknell. Go figure. Collins is Good, but wait until you see Derrick Rose, he’s better @ 6′2 and is an explosive leaper
November 26th, 2005 at 2:13 pm
I have to agree. We really got hosed getting Self. The man cannot motivate at all and doesn’t have the x’s and o’s to coach high school ball let alone Div 1 basketball. We are screwed.
December 11th, 2005 at 1:44 am
yo Illini, hit me up when you get a championship banner…cuz we have four.
And our football team is in a bowl game, and went undefeated at home.
May 10th, 2006 at 4:00 pm
I know Sherron personally from school, and I think it’s a good idea for him to leave. i have to admit at first I hated his gutz because of his attitude, but u grow to like him. He is a real cool person. I hope he makes the right decision and goes and starts on his career. This is for him and I’m very proud of him. Sherron, all I can say is good luck baby and never forget about us!
Always that gurl,
Krazy Kesha
January 4th, 2009 at 10:44 am
Looks like it worked out pretty well for Sherron.
March 21st, 2009 at 8:03 pm
and looks like Self’s high low system made Serron an all-american, lottery pick, and national champion. and you all sure you don’t miss bill self?