Wipeout!
That’s the start-to-finish truth about the inept performance the University of Illinois football team plopped onto the Rutgers Stadium field like a steaming pile of …
Shoot, that was ugly! In a game in which the Illini had a chance to show that improvement really is taking hold against a decent Division I football team, coach Ron Zook’s troops did just the opposite. They turned in an absolutely embarrassing performance that at times became laughably bad. And there it was on national television for the whole world to see. Wow.
Where to start? Let’s save the punting for last and start, instead, with the offense. This was a horrific showing by the offense. A grand total of 126 yards. That’s 66 yards rushing one week after rolling up 345 against Eastern Illinois. And 60 yards passing on a combined passing total of 7-for-21 between Tim Brasic and Juice Williams. Brasic threw both of the team’s interceptions, one of which was returned for a touchdown.
Brasic’s play was discouraging. He looked as bad as he’s ever looked and I’m including his worst efforts of last season. I really think the job is there for the taking, but Juice Williams looks like he has no idea in the passing game. He throws behind, over and in front of receivers but rarely hits one in the hands. He looks exactly like a freshman when this team really needs him to look much further along. He’ll be a good player, but he doesn’t look ready to be one now.
The offensive line needs to take a long look in the mirror because they neither opened holes for the running games nor kept the Rutgers pass rush out of the quarterbacks’ faces.
The offense never crossed the 50-yard line and was 0-for-12 in third down conversions. That’s horrible.
I said this in my column, but I think Zook can forget this three tailback rotation, too. Use Pierre Thomas and Rashard Mendenhall but in my world, E.B. Halsey is not part of the mix. And if he fields punts the way he did on Rutgers’ first punt Saturday, someone else can have that job, too. Halsey’s decision not to field the punt resulted in a 78-yard boot and roll that put Illinois in a deep hole.
Defensively, the play wasn’t horrible. The defense gave up 311 yards for the game and is responsible for only 19 of Rutgers’ 33 points. Of course, Rutgers may have run up more yardage if not for the fact that it kept getting the ball on a short field.
Penalties? Illinois was whistled for nine for 65 yards and a couple more were declined.
OK, the punting. This has turned into a joke. A bad joke, but a joke nonetheless.
I’ve been warning everyone about an impending disaster with freshman punter Kyle Yelton. His first punt came from Illinois’ own endzone and it was blocked for a touchdown. Zook tried to blame it all on broken down protection and I’m sure the film will show missed blocks. But he does a stutter-step, step, step sometimes that gives the rush team too much time to close the gap. He says he isn’t nervous but he looks nervous as heck to me.
Knowing that Yelton is feeling the heat, Zook spent this week getting wide receiver DaJuan Warren ready to share in the punting job. And Warren entered the game for the second punt and showed us his version of a rugby style, run-and-boot punt. It’s a low line drive designed to be placed away from the return specialist and take crazy hops. If you saw Eastern Illinois’ punter Zach Yates, you know what I’m talking about.
The whole thing is crazy. Yelton is scared and ineffective. Warren’s deal is a gimmick born of desperation. I don’t fault him and, in fact, I credit him for trying to help. The one advantage to having Warren back there is that he can run and pass, although no fakes were attempted Saturday. And Yelton did go back in and punted five times for an average of 32.6 yards (the block is not figured into that average). Warren had four punts for a 35.2-yard average.
Honestly, I’d cover my eyes when Illinois punts, but I’m afraid to miss what has become the most unpredictable play of any game. This is a train wreck waiting to happen every time Illinois lines up to punt and Zook badly underestimated Yelton’s ability as a true freshman. No question in my mind he should have a junior college punter in uniform, someone with experience, someone this team can rely on. Because even if Illinois were to make big improvements on offense and defense, I don’t see relief in sight when it’s time to punt.
This performance was a total disaster. One can only hope Illinois bounces back with a far better effort against Syracuse because I have seen nothing to show me this young team has the leadership to put the brakes on when things start going south. That happened within the game Saturday and it could happen within the season if things start to slide too quickly.
It’s tough when your football program has a habit of losing. Failure is too common. And even though no one consciously thinks about accepting failure, there are too many players who don’t know how to resist it hard enough.
And, by the way, what ever happened to throwing the ball to Kyle Hudson? Wasn’t he one weapon who delivered last season?
It’s back to the drawing board this week in preparation for Syracuse. Zook needs to crack the whip pretty hard. He needs to drive home the point that this kind of play won’t be tolerated.
On the one hand, it’s hard to imagine Illinois could play as poorly as it did against Rutgers for a second week in a row. On the other hand, who really knows?
September 9th, 2006 at 8:14 pm
Tupp- A total abomination. Just 1 short year ago, this supposedly inept program tried to pull off the upset at California. Now, with most every player back, they crap their pants and play like they did.
I hope for the sake of Josh Brent and Arrelious Brent that these two kids find good schools to play football fo. Illinois does not deserve them.
What a total abomination.
September 9th, 2006 at 8:26 pm
mark,
you basically summed it all up. It’s hard to even put into words how bad that game was. When Warren punted the ball ten yards into a rutgers player to get the ball back for us, I don’t think I have ever been more embarrassed as an illini fan.
September 9th, 2006 at 8:49 pm
Terrible performance. Team has to put this behind and go forward, but the punting is killer. Cannot see a win any time soon.
September 9th, 2006 at 9:11 pm
Hasn’t Labor Day already been celebrated? Time to move on to b-ball. When does Weber open practices?
September 9th, 2006 at 9:19 pm
OK, this one I saw (unfortunately). Thank you Mark for not pulling any punches. I think everyone here knows I am the eternal optimist for Illini sports…. but I cant take this. If this is what we can expect for the rest of this season (and how long beyond that who knows)I’m out. I cant watch football this bad. Mowing my yard is more appealing than watching this.
I keep thinking to myself, “You’ve got to be kidding me. No Illini team can be this bad.”
I know Rutgers is on a little upswing right now but we are talking about the team that use to fill Memorial stadium with 70,000 for a home game against Michigan or Ohio State and win. Those days seem like a VERY long time ago. When Rutgers is a tough game for us going in and we lose 33-0, well, we are a VERY long way from those days returning.
Tell me when its over so I can open my eyes again.
September 9th, 2006 at 9:33 pm
Why was Juice Williams rated so highly?
There’s a ton of guys that have strong arms but no accuracy. He’s terrible. I dont think coaching can really improve him. He either can throw an accurate ball, or he cant. Even if he makes the right decisions, physically he just isnt accurate. I mean like not even close.
Illinois needs to hire a coordinator from a successful program that first knows the X’s and O’s.
Hopefully this is Zook’s last year at Illinois. He’s terrible. Talk about recruiting all you want, but coaching is 100 times more important in football than it is in basketball, which is why you see Northwestern, Iowa, Minnesota, Purdue recruit similar talent but kill the Illini.
The sooner Ron Guenther retires, the better the athletic department gets. Until then, its gonna be bad time to be a fan of Illini football.
September 9th, 2006 at 9:37 pm
WOW…never saw that one coming! I was believing all the pre-season hype - BUT NO MORE! Just when I thought it couldn’t get any worse after last season, this game was without a doubt the worst exhibition of college football I’ve ever seen, at any level. Absolutely embarrassing and pathetic! What has improved over last year? If TB ever sees the field again this year, I’ll start questioning Zook’s judgment. Sorry, but that kid does not belong in a Div 1 starting role at any school! At this point, play all the freshmen, I’ll accept their mistakes alittle easier. My only ray of hope is what the Rutger’s coach kept saying last week how the game against the Illini last year was their turning point. Now can this year’s game be our turning point?
September 9th, 2006 at 10:29 pm
According to pre-game predictions, 81% of fans expected Illinois to lose this game but I doubt anyone thought it would be this ugly.
The defense was decent considering how muh they were on the field but the offense… What a disaster!
September 9th, 2006 at 11:00 pm
I wasn’t expecting them to win or anything, but for goodness sake, they could have at least showed up. Inept and embarrassing. They’ll be lucky to win more than two games this season.
September 9th, 2006 at 11:12 pm
Terrible coaching
September 9th, 2006 at 11:30 pm
I posted in the last blog, just before Tupp’s updated. Sorry for the repeat post, but…
If this game was a “measuring stick” then we got the snot beat out of us with it
The punting game was a complete disgrace. The best part of the kicking game was when DeJuan Wagner (yes he punted) kicked the ball SO poorly that it hit a Rutgers player in the back, allowing the Illini to recover the ball and retain possession.
Tim Brasic should be benched for the rest of the season and should arguably have his scholarship revoked. Some of the ‘plays’ he made today don’t get made in the freaking JFL. If we’re going to get our cans kicked, do it with a freshman QB that can learn something.
IIRC our offense gave up 1 TD and our punting game gave up 1 TD. That means the “D” played somewhat respectfully and only gave up a FG in the second half. I guess that’s a ‘bright’ spot…
Sorry for my negativity, but this game was no different than we’ve had to watch for 3+ years.
Sigh.
September 9th, 2006 at 11:45 pm
Tup: I almost got sick at my stomach watching the Illin today–I have watched them play since Art Dufelmeier and the Rose Bowl team in 1945–Good Lord this is tragic! I don’t see Zook coaching like I thought he could–his special teams suck big time and he was susposed to have been a sopecial teams coach in the NFL! Not having a punter ready is inexcusible–and Zook can’t blame that on anyone but himself–I can;’t beleive a big time coach would go into a season with a guy like Yelton? GO ILLINI!
September 9th, 2006 at 11:48 pm
I’m not sure if this should be Zook’s last year or not. A friend of mine is a big Tennessee fan - drives to all the games in Knoxville from Nashville. When the UI hired Zook his comment was “I really hope this works out - but I have serious doubts. Zook was the defensive coordinator for UT - and we were delighted when he left.” An ominous warning.
Let’s say, maybe being a realist, maybe a pessmist, that the Illini win one more - defeating Ohio University (not OSU!) this year. Is Zook done - I doubt it. But I would think there would be an ultimatum from the higher ups that 4 wins are required next year, or we try plan C.
September 10th, 2006 at 12:23 am
Reading some of the comments here and the lot of you already calling for Zook’s head it’s just sad. It’s a young team on the road and rebuilding. Have you ever looked at how bad Ferentz or Alvarez was the first two years? Ferentz didn’t win more than 4 games the first two seasons. Yeah it’s frustrating and embarrassing and I’m mad as hell after watching the game. But this is what rebuilding from the bottom all about. Blame it on Turner for giving us absolutely nothing to work with. Give it a rest and give Zook some time for crying out loud. It’s not like basketball where one good recruiting season and you have a turn around. Football players take time to gain experience and mature mentally and physically. You guys are a disgrace as fans.
September 10th, 2006 at 1:03 am
While everyone is talking about how bad it was to get beat 33-0, I can’t say I disagree with that.
Talent, speed, and size are all things people normally talk about with football games. In this game you couldn’t talk about that at all. Illinois just flat out looked more like they were playing some sorta backyard football game. What the hell was this all about?
Recruiting is important but to be honest right now I want to see Zook and his staff prove that they can coach. I’m not going to say that they should have so many wins but when the hell are they going to at least look competitive.
Tackles looked horrendous and at times the players were literally standing on the field looking lost while the ball was in play. Pathetic is all you can say to this.
September 10th, 2006 at 7:46 am
Tup,
Thanks for calling it like it is. I am sure it was painful to have to write anything on Saturday.
I felt all along that Illini fans were expecting way to much to soon. The hill we are climbing is a big one. I am not passing judgment on Ron Zook. So far I see little to lead me to believe he can move the program into the top half of the Big Ten, but I am will to give him a couple of years.
I hate to say it, but the Illini do not look well coached during the game. They are inept in places where coaching should be able to help– even if the talent level is low.
Let’s hope we hit 2006 rock-bottom last Saturday and we have no place to go but up.
September 10th, 2006 at 8:19 am
Dave #14 ~ Well said! We are definitely bad but we should never jump ship. Maybe we should act like my friends from Michigan and Indiana. Michigan fans typically root for UM in football and MSU in basketball. IU fans share a similar split loyalty in rooting for whoever is good. I make fun of them constantly for their cowardice! If you are going to root for the Illini, then do it in the good and bad! Again…well said!
Now in defense of all of you who are angry, there is absolutely no question that we are really bad right now. However, with the quality of recruits that Zook is bringing in, we won’t be that bad for long.
It is my own personal experience that leads me to believe that recruiting and time will be the only remedy. As a no talent freshman wide receiver at an NAIA school gained 35 pounds and added 75 pounds to my bench during my freshman year! I also was able to shave .3 of a second off my fourty (that made me only moderately slow!). The 14 or so freshman boys we played yesterday will look much more like men next year.
For whoever said that we recruit the same caliber of players that Purdue, Iowa and Wisconsin recruits and get killed by them…WAKE UP! We have not done anything in recruiting since Ron Turner arrived. Kurt Kittner and company was nothing more than a fluke for Turner! Steve Spurrier said shortly after Zook got fired in FL that he left the cupboard bare. Zook refilled the cupboard and then got fired. I would like to see him fill the cupboard here and then try and coach it before we tell him to go!
The only area of the coaching staff I would like to see a change in is an offensive coordinator. I would explain why I think this but you all watched the game.
September 10th, 2006 at 8:19 am
I moved to FL 12 years ago and really thought that Zook got a bad rap at UF. But after watching our Illini look absolutely “High School Football’ish” this weekend, I’m starting to believe they were right. I’m not calling for his head just yet, but the complaints they all had here about lack of coaching abilities are starting to surface. I never thought I would see a game worse than last year’s Penn St. drumming. When you do that against a ranked Joe Pa team, OK, but Rutgers????? Zook better start brushing up on his “Football Coaching for Dummy’s” book quick or else he will be polishing up that resume again really soon. I’m tired of the excuses of “young” and we are a “down program” that needs to be rebuilt. We are the 5th best football program in the state of Illinios. If there is no improvement against Syracuse next weekend, the players better get used to seeing a ton of empty seats going forward because no one is gonna want to watch this train wreck any more. I know my C-U trip plans have been scrapped again this year.
September 10th, 2006 at 8:24 am
Sadly, this is where Florida Gators fans knew Zook would take your program from the moment he was hired. The purpose of my comment is not to gloat over that fact or make any “told you so” style insinuations. It’s just to point out the truth. Zook has your program in reverse and his foot is mashed on the accelerator.
And I can tell you something else.
It’s going to get worse.
Among Zook’s many serious problems as a head football coach, perhaps the most serious is the culture of tolerating losing which he breeds. It happened at Florida. I couldn’t believe my ears when after losing a big game (or losing to a lesser opponent) our top-shelf athletic talent would say things like “It’s just a game” or “That’s why they keep score.” The team’s discipline steadily dropped. Their output steadily worsened. Zook constantly made excuses for both the coaching staff and the players. His game day decisions were completely incomprehensible.
I feel like I’m seeing at Illiniois all over again.
I honestly wonder if he can win a single football game this year with the team he’s cobbled together.
Give Florida’s athletic director, Jeremy Foley, credit. He recognized a trainwreck in progress when he saw it. Zook lasted three seasons at Florida. He would have had longer, but never showed any sign that the program was improving in the slightest.
I’m afraid that’s where the Illini football program is today. The problem with giving Zook more time is that he’s putting you deeper in the hole, that much further behind for whomever is going to come in next and pick up the pieces.
Recruits will see miserable performances like the one on national TV yesterday, and say “I don’t want to play for that joke of a program.”
When you’re talking about challenges in the punting game, you know you have problems. Especially when your head coach is supposedly a special teams guru. Putting a wide receiver in as a punter? I almost have to do a double-take. You patient and deserving fans have already been suckered in by Zook to the point that you seriously consider some of his boneheaded moves before shooting them down.
He is a good man. A family man, and a hard worker. A tireless recruiter. But he’s an awful D-IA coach. And that’s not going to change.
You have my sympaties and I share your hope for change. The guy just shouldn’t be coaching at this level and it’s a shame that he’s tarnishing the image of Illini sports with his awful output in the football program.
September 10th, 2006 at 8:35 am
Ok, we are all very disappointed with such an inept performance. Lets not all call for Zook’s head so quickly. After all, his recruits are primarily raw freshman and red-shirt freshmen. If we are still this horrible in two years, I would be the first to call for his dismissal, but not two games into his second season. This is football–it takes years. Once again, many on this blog and Illini board fail to realize the real culprits in this mess. Ron Turner for the poorest recruting in D-1 history and the guy who hired him–your beloved AD!! RT had NEVER recruited at a high D-1 level, so the blame falls at the feet who gets so little heat is just amazes me-Mr. Ron Guenther. He has presided over the worst 15 year stretch in Illinois football history-2001 was a fluke–and yet he gets very little heat. A school with real aspirations to win at football would have long since sent him into early retirement. I am not sure we will ever have a program with this guy at the helm. I defy anyone out there to give me any reason he should be retained–other than that age-old stuff his defenders always trot out–about wrestling programs and softball diamonds!!! And I haven’t even mentioned women’s basketball–now there’s a program on the rise!!
September 10th, 2006 at 9:01 am
I know it looks bad, but how many Super Bowl games have we watched where the loosing team just can’t seem to stop a steam rolling ship?
Don’t get me wrong- it was very disappointing, frustrating, etc, and I think when EB let that first punt go - when they had a chance at very good field position, the young kids thought- what is going on.
They’ll bounce back, or Coach Zook will have all Frosh and Sophs playing! I actually liked a couple of things I saw Williams do, but as I might do- when excited about a couple of first downs in a row- he went up and forgot the first thing- the snap.
I agree with Zook in that they are a better team, but not 33 points better. I was favorably impressed with the defense that was guarding a short field all day!
September 10th, 2006 at 9:16 am
Nothing much positive to say after that game. Oh yeah, in a word: PUNTER, PUNTER, PUNTER, PUNTER, PUNTER,…. well, you get the idea. (It ain’t the only thing wrong, but it’s a big one at the moment.) Syracuse took big, bad Iowa to OT before they lost. It could get ugly really quick next week…I hope I’m wrong, gang. Like Lynn (#16) said: “..no place to go but up.” A 33-0 score is just unacceptable anymore. GO ILLINI!!
September 10th, 2006 at 11:03 am
I agree with just about every observation of our football team posted here. Allow me to repeat some and add a new one that people haven’t mentioned.
The offensive line was a sieve. Neither QB or any runner had any space to operate. Both were in a repeat performance from last year in a run for your life situation.
The special teams are a disaster - period.
The defense was on the field all day defending a short field. The only time they got a break was in the beginning when the punt was blocked and the Int. thrown, and our offense had to go back out. All in all the defense was OK.
Ron Zook did not have the talent in players that Rutgers did. That won’t change by getting rid of Ron Zook. He need to be able to play with his recruits when they are physically matured. Yes, there is a lot of growing that these kids go through in 4 to 5 years. Playing young kids also means playing kids that aren’t as physically mature. In two years, if we haven’t turned the corner then that is a problem.
As for the Offensive Coordinator, Mike Locksley is our best recruiter, by far. We need him. Losing our QB coach earlier in the year may be some of the problem, but regardless, the offensive line isn’t doing the job.
Tupps, I agree with your assessment of Halsey. I like him as an individual, and team player, but he just isn’t up the the challenge at this level.
I haven’t sold my PSU/Illini tickets yet, as PSU didn’t look that good either.
I played recreational football while at Illinois, and there were many kids on that field that could punt better than what we have. Open walkon tryouts on campus and we will improve our punting game.
When does Basketball start?
September 10th, 2006 at 11:31 am
You have got to be kidding me. That was absolutely horrible. Worst game I have ever seen played and coached. The tone was set with Halsey letting the punt sail over his head. It was only made worse by Zook running the ball on 3rd and 8. We supposedly have two decent tight ends and decent set of receivers and we decide to run a sweep left?!?! Are you serious? That deep in your own territory knowing that your “punter” is worse than a deer stuck in headlights? Seriously? You know if you don’t make it, your freshman punter, and I use that term loosley, is punting out of the end zone. That’s unaccpetable coaching. Tupper you are right, he has known about this problem since last year and did nothing to address their needs. They have a student population of how many in Champaign and they can’t find someone to punt the ball further than 28 yeards? Zook’s fault. You can’t expect to win with a punting game that can’t help you with field position. Enough of the coaching. Those kids did not show any heart. Yes they were down early, but last year against Rutgers should have taught them to keep plugging away. All I saw yesterday was a whole lot of quit. I think we may have won our only game of the season. I’m seriously tempted to not watch any more of the carnage. As far as “we are making progree”….save the talk. I’m not seeing any of it, if anything we regressed yesterday. Here’s to a long season.
September 10th, 2006 at 11:52 am
Remember when then new coach Lou Tepper said the punter was the most important position on the team? I was worried then, but I think I am more worried now seeing that Zook doesn’t seem to believe a punter is important at all.
Does anyone else think Zook’s sideline behavior looks like a disorganized coach? He’s also starting to get the deer in headlights look that Bob Davie had at Notre Dame. I believe in giving a guy a chance, but I don’t see this working out.
Not to take anything away from how bad the Illini looked, but Rutgers does have a very good team.
September 10th, 2006 at 12:49 pm
I find it interesting that Britt Miller has affixed the problem to the Freshmen having to “step it up” in practice, that with studies, test and practice, they are getting a little worn and they need to get over it.
I guess as I watched the game, I didn’t think to blame the Freshmen. I did see Britt running around like he was lost, though. He was just faster at it than any of the other backers.
September 10th, 2006 at 1:13 pm
I think a DaJuan Warren punt into an opposing player’s back when they are not looking, should be in the Illinois game plan every week. That’s the only way we will have an offense against Div. 1 teams.
As for the comment that we might have a chance to win one against Ohio University, they just beat Northern Illinois by about the same score as Ohio State did the week before.
Let’s go back to blogging basketball.
September 10th, 2006 at 1:16 pm
Forget the talk of Rutgers having a “very good team”. If that’s true then every team we face the rest of the season is a “very good team”. I do not give Rutgers any credit for this EMBARRASSMENT, I blame the Illini.
“Comical” that’s a word I don’t believe I’ve ever read in a sports writer’s story about a football game, but unfortunately I’ve read it in several stories today about our Illini.
Shock - embarrassment - disbelief - frustration - anger - now COMICAL! That is really sad.
And to think I was looking forward to this season just 3 weeks ago with some optimism. Thinking that if we could just be competitive and show some improvement, and I don’t care how many games we win. Well that optimism has been removed completely.
Note to RG - after buying season tickets for over 30 years and seeing some bad football I’m really questioning now whether I’ll continue to pay over $40 a ticket for this sort of “entertainment”. Comedy clubs charge a whole lot less. For a Div I football game that was the most pathetic thing I have ever seen. Moeller’s teams were bad, but not comical.
September 10th, 2006 at 1:25 pm
Let me see if I can do this right? They just wanted it more than we did! No shame in that they just tried harder! Now I hope the hoops fans see this turd statement for what it was.
If you folks expect improvement next week against Syracuse you should definetly skip the game. They looked fairly capable against Iowa and I’m pretty sure they could kick the crap out of us.
Don’t be to hard on Juice ( How homerish does that nickname look right now?) I watched Vince Young spare everyone to death for nearly two full years then he suddenly could hit a receiver once in a while. Reggie Mcneil was the next great thing and now he is a punt returner! With that being said even the worst team in the world can run it three times, punt and play field position ball and not get beat like this.
Yes there is a guy on an intramural team who can consistently punt it 35 yards! Hell I think I can still go thirty and with about 6 seconds of hang time!
Brandon - Stop with the beefcake stats. We are all duly impressed!
Although I think I am crazy I would love to see the Guenther fans explain this debacle or for that matter the last decade. ( Remember Ohio State hired a D-2 guy and IMPROVED!!!)
For the Zook apologists let me ask you this: What else would a coach without a clue say was the reason for failure?
September 10th, 2006 at 1:43 pm
I have never seen Tim Brasic have a good game against Div I competition or when it was needed. Everything I have seen with his success is against Div IAA schools or in practice. Get him on a field with an actual other Div I team and he panicks. He is not a leader.
Zook apparently suffers from the same illness Turner had. When players can’t block or tackle, when
play calling has zero creativity, and when there are no players who are leaders, there is only one person
to blame - the head coach. Zook needs to be making some coaching changes and soon. What we saw last year and now this year is proof his coaches are about as bad as
coaches can get. Guenther needs to resign himself now that he most likely will need a new head coach unless Zook pulls off 3 more wins which is not going to happen, so start looking now. He should have done what needed to be done initially - hired a proven, big name head coach that players would respect and fear, a head coach who can bring in Tillman like leaders that younger players can
emulate. A guy like Ditka for example. Illinois is 5 years away from a winning season. The problem is not just lack of talent, the problem is management. Finally, Guenther should cancel the eastern illinois and middle tennesse state schools in the future and start scheduling Florida, USC, Notre Dame, et al. The only way our players are going to learn how to become winners is to play against as many tough teams as possible. I don’t care if they lose 72-0. Eventually they will
get better out of pure survival instincts. Just like Weber does in basketball when he schedules other top rated programs - young players learn by playing against the best. Our players for the past several seasons learned nothing playing San Jose State, Eastern Illinois, et al.
Tom Duffy
Mesa AZ
September 10th, 2006 at 2:05 pm
Tupp - Could you please consider writing a story about the “no huddle” offense? I want to hear why the coaches are running it.
1) To speed up the game - not heppening, we still take the clock down to 1 or 2 seconds.
2) Keep the defense off balance - ain’t happening since we still take a full clock to run a play.
Instead of teaching our QB to audible, a skill they need to be successful, we have him staring at the coaches on the sideline and not surveying the defensive scheme. So we have him deciphering a signal when he should be concentrating on what his progression is going to be when the play unfolds.
Do our opponents have those hand signals figured out? Do the the LBs and DBs have adequate time to adjust? Seems like after that QB foot pump the snap occurs. Defense just times their rush off of that?
I just think our “no huddle” looks disorganized and isn’t accomplishing anything positive. Drop the gimmicks and just go back to basic football. When and if we perfect that, then try some gimmicks.
September 10th, 2006 at 2:17 pm
KY Mike, your commentary makes much more sense when it’s directed at a pathetic football team, instead of a basketball team that has been among the nations best for the better part of a decade.
“Brandon - Stop with the beefcake stats. We are all duly impressed!”
I have no idea what this means…tell me whether to laugh or be offended.
September 10th, 2006 at 2:33 pm
No wonder Coach Okruch wanted out of this quagmire this spring. According to him all the assistant coaches are terrible. He doesn’t want any part of it. Unfortunately his coaching reflects it. All the arm tackling in the world, tackling from the shoulder down, and chasing the ball carrier shows that he has put his best effort into helping the defense improve. I’m hearing the defense didn’t do so poorly? 311 yards gained mostly from the half field? Does that mean that if we had made them start from their 20 (our punting must improve) that they would not have gained 500-600 yards? There is a picture on the opening page of Fightingillini.com of Britt Miller tackling Clark Harris. Where is Britt? Behind him trying to drag him down! Just like we do everything. We tackle from behind and block from behind. When I coached football I always told our players football is a game played going forward no matter what side of the line you are on! Be aggresive and lead, don’t watch and follow. Young or not, these players surely weren’t taught to tackle from behind, or the top down in high school were they? If so why recruit them? I watched a little of the Ohio State game and noticed their tacklers kept their head between the ballcarrier and the endzone, kept their feet and drove through the man. Did now see many arm tackles or sliding down from the shoulder to the knees. Oh yes , their tacklers kept their feet, too. So much on takling and defense. The O line backed up, stood up and blocked from the shoulder up. Good sound football? Coaching, coaching, coaching. I’d like to think Okruch is a malcontent and will leave, but if he is contributing to the problem, send him packing. Low to high, keep your feet, drive through the man, still works every time. We can’t do this because were young, poorly coached, or wrong type personnel? Hold a walk-on try-out for a punter. Lot of foot movement from our punter before the snap. Might make it hard for the snapper to concentrate! It can only go up from here. I hope!
September 10th, 2006 at 2:50 pm
I thought the offensive line except for Matt Maddox was poor. On Defence only J. Leman was doing a good job. Kyle Hudson should have been used and only got one throw. Zook in my opinion did not coach this game like he should have. He made no adjustments. Lets forget the game and get on to the next.
September 10th, 2006 at 2:59 pm
I won’t add to the chorus of disgust because there’s nothing else to say and I largely agree.
One observation, however: a little leadership on offense can make a world of difference.
I sat in the Carrier Dome in Syracuse yesterday afternoon expecting to see Iowa demolish Syracuse within two drives. They didn’t, obviously, but not because the Orange are necessarily good. Iowa sucked and nearly lost a game in which they were nearly three-touchdown favorites (on the road, no less) because they had only one drive during the game when they exhibited any form of confidence.
And that lack of confidence came from the fact that Drew Tate sat on the bench injured while a senior backup who had never started a game ran the offense from the first snap.
He was guiding a squad of seasoned starters on a team picked in the top three of the Big Ten. And they looked awful most of the time. How bad? On the final drive of regulation on third and long from around their own 20 the QB dropped back, ran into his running back, and fell down. That’s how bad. And it was indicative of how they played most of the game.
Had Tate started the game would have been over swiftly. I would have seen a top 15 offense and not one that reminded me in certain ways of the Illini. It would have worked smoothly. Tate would have picked Syracuse apart, which would have opened up the running game and never allowed the crowd to get into the game and make the Dome a very loud place.
Instead, the backup Manson threw four interceptions and engineered only one credible drive in regulation. With each interception you could just see the offense get more rattled.
Syracuse has a solid defensive line but they were noticably smaller than Iowa and less quick. It’s simply that the offensive players didn’t seem to know what to do or where to go in any sort of coordinated fashion. And the line seemed not to know where the QB was heading most of the time.
I believe that Tate’s absence made all the difference. Syracuse got the ball across midfield on only four drives during the game and on three of those they didn’t get past the Iowa 40 or so.
My point is simply that having a QB like Brasic who is apparently unable to lead or to inspire confidence renders the offense useless. Maybe Zook is a terrible coach; maybe we are beyond hope. But let’s wait to judge Zook until we have a QB with talent and presence and a complete team that Zook has recruited.
Now, can we beat Syracuse next week? That’s a separate matter.
September 10th, 2006 at 3:49 pm
Well Ron Guenther, I can only hope you read blogs. BECAUSE- if you do, you will see that in the first 29 responses to Tupp’s article, you are not thought that highly of.
September 10th, 2006 at 6:44 pm
I’m not too worried about the punting situation. The kid has a strong leg and just needs more reps. I predict that won’t be a problem, and that Illinois will have the All-Big Ten punter for the 5th year in a row by the end of the season.
September 10th, 2006 at 6:51 pm
I was going to give Dave my post of the day award for shooting down all the fire Zook BS, then I read J.K.’S. That’s truly hilarious. Punting into a opposing player as an offensive attack.mad props J.K.
That play is the only regret I have for not watching the game.
Who are these Florida residents that hate Zook so much that feel the need to come into illini country and trash him? Get out of here! You’re not bringing anything to the table. We’re sticking with him for at least a few more years. It’s the only way to know what we got. Not like we can run out and pilfer a BCS coach like Meyer. We’r crap.
September 10th, 2006 at 7:03 pm
Brandon - I meant to reply to Ryan. I had an image of him posing in the mirror while typing. As for hoops that statement is pathetic whether you can’t play football or loose to a scrub on your floor guarding a long winning streak. If you think proping up your opponent makes your loss look better so be it but great teams and programs think everyone but them blows!!!
September 10th, 2006 at 7:40 pm
Are there still any Ron Guenther supporters (oops! make that apologists) out there? Please let’s hear your latest excuses.
How many times we have to say that this loser Guenther simply does not…I repeat does not…want excellence and/or championship for our football and basketball programs…and as long as he is around, we’ll never get there…we’ve simply got to dump this loser if we are to finally win a championship in any of these two sports. That’s one of the main reasons that top recruits don’t come to Illinois beacuse they know and believe that this bum is not serious about excellence and/or national championship in these two important sports…so, why should they devaluate their own worth?
Here is a simple example of Ron Guenther’s ineptness…first he sticks with Ron Turner too long and then he goes and hires Ron Zook. As much as I like and respect Mr. Zook as a person, business is business. A top Ad would have realized that if Mr. Zook was good enough to turn around a horrible football program such as ours, he would still be coaching Florida Gators! Here is another example of this bum’s lack of interest in these two sports…the day after the college footbal day when every school’s internet sport site is addressing footbal, the IL site opens with tennis…that’s Guenther for you…just changes the subject…he just doen’t give a damn about these two sports. One can write a whole book about Guenthers ongoing failures…the guy is a joke of an AD.
I keep saying this (and his apologists keep arguing a losing cause)…this bum has got to go…the sooner the better.
Sorry that we ahve to suffer another miserable football season…but we deserve it for being such suckers and stupid enough to keep this loser around.
Now let’s hear from Guenther’s biggest supporter (oops! I mean apologist) none other than PRIC EDITOR BOY…speak up boy!
September 10th, 2006 at 8:13 pm
Ron Zook has no experience or track record building a program. Ron Zook was demoted from DC coordinator to special teams by Spurrier. What he is is passionate and hard working without a real clue of how to get the job done. He cannot hire quality assistants because his name is synonymous with the Titanic. If you love the Illini, cut your losses now and fire Ron Zook. If you think recruiting will get you by, think of this. He had some of the best talent in the country at UF and lost to a horrible Miss State team. Any success at UF he had was inspite of himself, not because of it. Ron Zook’s a great guy but he can’t fix the Illini. Good luck.
September 10th, 2006 at 8:17 pm
Why must they have “ILLINOIS” on the side of the players helmets? Why should all Illinoians have to be associated with that debacle of a team? (Just because the university doesn’t mind, doesn’t mean that the rest of us are happy with it.)
September 10th, 2006 at 8:33 pm
That performance on Saturday has caused me to alter my thinking. I no longer think the ineptitude of the football program can be blamed on individuals like Guenther, Tepper, Turner and now Zook. I think the program is under a curse. How it started and how it can be removed I can’t say. It just seems this is going to take more than we imagined to get past.
P.S. There has to be someone on a campus as big as Illinois’ that can punt better than what we have. A former high schooler or maybe someone who punted in junior college. Maybe just someone with a little athletic ability and good eye-hand coordination. Is it too late for an open tryout on campus?
September 10th, 2006 at 8:48 pm
Please, I think everyone at Illinois – the coaches, players, even Ron Guenther – are doing the best they can. I think the real mistake was scheduling Eastern Illinois.
I say go with youth and what they have as assets - speed and enthusiasm. Turn the Juice loose and throw vertical as the first option, and let him scramble anytime he wants.
Play no-huddle too. Speed the game up even further, which actually fits with kids video-game-attuned attention spans. This will get the kids excited and truly provide fits for defensive coordinators due to the lack of predictability.
I agree with Mark on one thing – go with Pierre and Rashard (if not just Rashard). The vertical/scramble first option will set up the running game.
On defense, play the younger players. Stunt and blitz on nearly every play – be unpredictable.
Take a real chance and play the kids. Speed, speed, speed…
September 10th, 2006 at 9:52 pm
What scares me is that conventional wisdom says a team’s greatest improvement is from its first game to its second game. But Zook’s teams seem to get worse as the season goes along. And this is the biggest dropoff in performance between the first and second game I have ever seen.
September 10th, 2006 at 11:30 pm
We may not live in illinois now, but we once did. Were still loyal Illini fans. But living in gainesville the past 4 years, I personally witnessed The ineptness of coach Zook. The gator nation was against his hiring in the first place. I told you about Mr Zook over a year ago when he was hired. I was so happy when Turner was fired , then my Bears hired him, damn. Then my next night mare happened, we hired mr. Zook, damn. At least We got a good coach at florida.
September 11th, 2006 at 6:36 am
I live in Connecticut, so it is a rare opportunity to see my Illini live and I have been looking forward to the Piscataway game ever since it was annouced. All that anticipation to see a game like this! I really feel for coach Zook. This must be killing him.
September 11th, 2006 at 6:41 am
Kentucky Mike ~ Apparently you know very little about football and have very little capability of understanding the message in the written word. You have no idea about me “beefcake stats” because I don’t have them and never said that I did. As an individual that played football it was purly due to passion for the game and not due to talent. My comments were meant to illustrate that the recruits we just brought in are going to get bigger and stronger and faster. That is all I meant. Your response to me was childish at best. Grow up just a little, and stop being such an incessant jerk. We haven’t heard anything ornery from you in a while, but if you are back to spewing your nastiness on this post feel free, we are used to it.
September 11th, 2006 at 7:45 am
Well I was at the game. It made for a long flight home that got even longer when my flight was delayed.
1) RPIC Editor Boy, is RG still a great AD? He’s a football guy, right?
2) Whoever said J Leman played well must have been watching a different game. He had a chance to make a tackle for a loss, missed, RB got 5 yards for a first down.
3) Our front 7 on Defense is not good. Our LBs cannot cover the TE.
4) Brasic is not good.
But remember, trust Ron Guenther’s judgment!
September 11th, 2006 at 8:52 am
So KY Mike, you’re absolutely certain at this point that Zook is Gary Moeller and not Mike White (minus Neale Stoner) with potential to turn us around once he gets a stellar QB and a couple years of seasoned players?
I’ll allow that we have no idea whether he can truly coach, only an indication that he can recruit. The entire discussion, however, at the least seems somewhat premature before the final gun in Evanston.
Perhaps others can refresh my addled memory; who with any credible track record was interested in coaching our train wreck of a program in 2004?
As for those ex-Gators who slam Zook, I take your observations more seriously. But remember where we’re starting from. John Cooper couldn’t coach his way out of a paper bag in the fourth quarter of a tight game at OSU and he had top recruits falling out of trees into his porogram. Still, I’d take him in a minute over nearly every head coach (except White and Mackovic) we’ve had since the sorry days of Bob Blackman.
Did Guenther really have much to market in ‘04 beyond an enormous challenge?
September 11th, 2006 at 8:54 am
Why can’t Guenther find a complete football coach. For the past 15 years, his hires have been overreactions to the previous coach. First, he hires a defensive coach who knows nothing about offense, and goes through 3 coordinators in 5 years. That was a failure.
So, Guenther reacts by hiring an offensive coach, who can’t get the defense right. We go through 3 defensive coordinators in 7 years. At the end of the tenure, recruiting is a disaster. So, Guenther reacts again by hiring a master recruiter who does not appear to understand the X and O of coaching, and doesn’t know how to prepare a team. What will Guenther do next?
September 11th, 2006 at 9:01 am
Winston paints Guenther with a broad brush. I have always avoided the RG debate, but RPIC as much as it pains me, I gotta side with Winston on this.
I will concede that RG’s football hires have been pretty well pathetic (although I think we have to give Zook another year).
BUT his basketball hires have been on the money. I wish he could translate that onto the football field.
I don’t know about any of the other sports, because I don’t care and it doesn’t matter. FB and BB are the biggies. He’s got 1 outta 2 big sports and probably does a decent job on the rest, is a good fund raiser, blah, blah. But the failures on the football field are not acceptable. Something big needs to happen.
September 11th, 2006 at 9:16 am
Hayden Fry #26: Britt Miller is in a helluva lot better position than you are to say whether or not freshmen need to get over what must seem like an overwhelming increase in both academic and athletic commitments.
He was coping with the same situation himself one year ago.
KY Mike #29: “Don’t be to hard on Juice.” ???
You just can’t WAIT to see that kid start, can you?
Brandon #32: where “rooting” for Illinois is concerned KY Mike is a one-trick pony, so don’t pay too much attention to his caustic sarcasm.
Jake #38: I couldn’t agree with you more… it’s one thing to run a guy outta Florida w/o giving him a chance, but it’s another thing altogether to crucify the job he’s doing here before he has a chance.
I s’pose it’s a lot easier to be that arrogant when you have a football program like Florida’s though…
DisgusTING #40: ahhh… the ORIGINAL one-trick pony.
Yeah, the Illini sucked Saturday, and left us with little reason for optimism.
Guess we should all just throw away our Illini shirts and caps and hop on the Ohio State bandwagon, huh?
For every KY Mike, DisgusTING Illini and Winston Smith of the world, there are thousands of Illinois fans who disagree with their outlandishly pessimistic outlook.
I’ll take Ron Guenther’s judgement over yours any old day of the millennium, Winston.
Anyone else who thinks it’s possible to turn a football program from a turd into a diamond in less than 2 seasons needs to get a grip.
September 11th, 2006 at 9:46 am
RPIC EB:
“Anyone else who thinks it’s possible to turn a football program from a turd into a diamond in less than 2 seasons needs to get a grip.”
Well (and enough) said, though I’d probably choose “a turd into fertile soil” since, as KY Mike has noted, I am extremely forgiving of incompetence.
Thank you for summarizing the matter succinctly.
September 11th, 2006 at 10:44 am
That was awful - a failure in every respect. If they play like that in the Big Ten, the score board is going to need room for a third digit.
September 11th, 2006 at 11:26 am
It’s easy to sit back and criticize Zook after a game like that, but where is the well-deserved and continued criticism of Ron Turner? I’m still furious with the way he buried Illinois football after a BCS berth! That guy left the Illinois program with about five players who were worthy of playing at a Div IA school. I thought Lou Tepper was a terrible recruiter, but Turner made him look like a genius. There was nothing at Illinois for Zook to start with. It is impossible to restock a program with 25 or 30 seasoned and competitive athletes in 18 months. Can’t be done. As embarrassing as this group seems to be, we have to sit back and take it until they’ve had enough experience to know better.
September 11th, 2006 at 11:34 am
You folks are keepin’ me awake! Is it mid-November yet? If not, then wake me when it gets here, will ya? Yawn… GO ILLI…n…..i. Snore……..
September 11th, 2006 at 12:01 pm
For all the conjecture, speculation, rumor and bashing of Ron Guenther you could ever hope to hear (or read), please stay tuned to everything posted by certain unnamed frequenters of this blog.
For actual information about Ron Guenther, what he’s doing and what he’s done, take your pick:
5/23 – No matter what, Guenther in a tough spot:
http://www.herald-review.com/blogs/marktupper/?m=200605
5/12 – The Chief, the stadium and other matters:
http://www.herald-review.com/blogs/marktupper/?p=233#comments
6/26 – Guenther hoping patience will pay:
http://www.herald-review.com/blogs/marktupper/?p=237#comments
All He Wants For Christmas:
http://www.news-gazette.com/special/fballcoach/index.cfm?page=story&sid=14143
Guenther Determined To Fix Mess:
http://www.news-gazette.com/special/fballcoach/index.cfm?page=story&sid=14274
What They’re Saying (about Zook):
http://www.news-gazette.com/special/fballcoach/index.cfm?page=story&sid=14285
Guenther Found The Right Coach
http://www.news-gazette.com/special/fballcoach/index.cfm?page=story&sid=14265
Renaissance in Champaign:
http://nwitimes.com/articles/2006/08/12/sports/college_sports/d03370b497bb2c75862571c7007dba38.txt
http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/newssun/sports/5_2_WA02_ILLINI_S10902.asp
http://www.cstv.com/sports/m-wrestl/stories/083106aaa.html
http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/beaconnews/top/2_1_AU31_CHIEF_S10831.htm
http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/beaconnews/sports/2_2_AU22_MEMORIAL_S10822.asp
http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/couriernews/sports/3_2_EL15_C8ILLINI_S10815.asp
http://www.belleville.com/mld/belleville/sports/15258480.htm
September 11th, 2006 at 12:02 pm
RPIC, as usual, you miss the larger issue. Your hero Guenther is the one who allowed this program to become “a turd.” The self-proclaimed “football guy” has let the football program (the MAIN REVENUE SPORT) rot twice under his watch. 4 bowl games in 13 seasons as AD. Yeah, RPIC Editor Boy, we’ll trust Guenther’s judgment.
September 11th, 2006 at 12:34 pm
I’m going to therapy!!!!!!!! Not because of the inept, lackluster, pathetic performance of the Illini on Saturday, but because I actually agreed with about 90% of Ky Mike’s blog. Scary!!
As for J. Leman, he hasn’t made a tackle within 6 yards of the line of scrimmage in all the games I’ve watched. He is slow and average. If he’s on the “Butkus” watch, it must mean that he’s watching for Butkus in a commercial somewhere. And Brasic, being an upper classman and “experienced”, needed to be a leader on the road for all the freshmen. He wasn’t. I would just as soon lose with Juice as with Brasic. The kid (Brasic) is just not a leader or a winner.
As for Zook, you can’t make Chicken salad out of ……….well, you know. But if you have mistaken Chicken Sh….. for Chicken Salad, then belly up, pal. And I hope you’re hungry. Every year, we hear the Illini coaches talk about recruiting the talent out of Illinois. If Saturday’s show was representative of that talent, then to hell with the high school coaches in Illinois - who needs ‘em? If that’s the best Illinois high school football has to offer, then let’s hire a coach and put him in Florida, another in Texas and another in California. That’s where the talent lives, and that’s where you must recruit to be the best. Mike White always said that he would have loved to recruit Illinois players, but the best athletes in Illinois play basketball. That’s why you have to recruit skill position players from FL, TX and CA. it’s the only way to win and win big.
September 11th, 2006 at 12:49 pm
Actually, I’m too disgusted to repeat all of the above comments. I didn’t realize that Okruch was so disgusted with things, but as far as Tups’ analysis of the running backs, I nagree wholeheartedly. E.B’s average was 2.4 yds/ carry. Amost exactly where it has been for his whole career at Illinois. I definately think that Pierre an Mendhenall shoul get 95% of the carries between them and then if the need a 3rd option that they should give Charles Baily a chance.
Topcat
September 11th, 2006 at 1:34 pm
RPIC Editor Boy– Put down your oreange and blue Kool Aid fo;r just a second!!! Yes, Zook needs more time–anyone calling for hsi head is blatantly unfair. But you contradict yourself when you so vehemently support RG. You call our football program a “turd.” Under whose watch has our football program been under the last 15 years. Who hired Ron Turner, the worst recruiter in the history of Div. 1 football???
It makes me sick that we have become a natinal laughingstock. No university that wants to win would accept such blatant ineptness from its AD. His apologists will continue to talk about softball diamonds and wrestling programs. Pretty soon those sports will have more fans than football!! Of course, we always have women’s basketball to hang our hat on!! Another great RG hire!!!
September 11th, 2006 at 1:38 pm
# 40 - Disgusted Illini Fan and all of you guys who are looking for Ron Guenther apologists…here I am. Feel free to bring it on.
Most of the posters on this blog are too young to remember the real horrible days of athletics at Illinois…like the 70’s..when one would turn on the radio in the 2nd quarter and Illinois would be down 35 to 0 to OSU or UM…or even Purdue and Michigan State. In the fall of ‘78…when most of you were still suckling…I watched 2 patehtic teams (Northwestern and Illini) struggle to a 0 - 0 tie. And those were the days when Audie Mathews and Rob Judson were your best basketball players. There was no decent baseball, track, tennis, etc programs…they all sucked. Illinois was the doormat of EVERY sport in the Big Ten…with the exception of maybe fencing. Stoner had the good sense to hire Lou Henson…after FAILING with Gene Bartow and Harv Schmidt. He hired the Bob Blackmun and con artist Mike White, and John MAckovic, who skipped town for Texas.
Ron Guenther has made Illini sports repectable across the board, and has given us a BB program that is consistently in the Top 20…every year save 1.
And for you morons calling for Zook’s head after 13 games….you are either delusional or just damn stupid. Whose players is the great Urban Meyer’s winning with down at U F. Spurrier admitted himself that he left the cupboards bare for Zook….even more than R T did here. Given the man a chance….and let his kids grow up. Exactlyt one year ago, these freshman were playing HIGH SCHOOL football. Think about that when you are watching Champaign Centennial or Joliet Catholic or Wheaton-Warrenvile play: this is the level of competition that a 1/3 of Illinois’ starters were playing against last year.
Yes, we sucked against Rutgers. But Penn State sucked against Notre Dame. And no one is calling for his head…and they have a heck of a lot more talent than we do….and Notre Dame is NOT the # 2 team in the country, regardless of the polls.
So all of you bashers can go back to the rock you were sleeping under after the E I U game…I’m sure you won’t be seen after Illinois recovers and beats Syracuse this week.
September 11th, 2006 at 1:50 pm
From the Champaign News-Gazette link posted by RPIC:
“Basically, Guenther has a long list of accomplishments, but he can’t win the big one. A 4-19 football record during the last two years have sent fans tumbling off the bandwagon, stymied recruiting and slowed further construction plans. A 4-19 record has cast a pall over the UI’s autumn weekends.”
“This is Guenther’s last chance to get it right. He doesn’t intend to be around for any more major hirings. He will have monumental decisions related to the Assembly Hall and Memorial Stadium, but this is the one that will make or break his legacy with the fans.”
September 11th, 2006 at 2:32 pm
Algonquin Bill-wrong. Cecil Coleman hired Bartow & Henson. He also hired Bob Blackman. Neale Stoner hired Mike White.
And for the umpteenth time, I am not calling for Zook’s head. I expect the team to make a bowl game in 2007. However, I am calling for the head of the other Ron.
September 11th, 2006 at 2:52 pm
I almost forgot my message to Kentucky Mike:
Apology accepted.
Dig hard to find it because it’s got to be there somewhere…because Ky Mike never, never attacks other posters first!
September 11th, 2006 at 2:59 pm
I have gathered from some time participating on this blog that everyone thinks Ron Turner was the worst thing in history to happen to Illinois football. I also gather that everyone thinks no one in the world was a worse recruiter. (I think one of the posts this week even says so).
Unlike apparently all of you, I remember the 2001 season. Win the Big Ten. Go the Sugar Bowl (because the Rose Bowl was full). The thought about Turner at the time was not that he was the worst coach ever, or the worst recruiter, but how could we lock him up long term and keep him from jumping back to the NFL. You should also recall that virtually the entire 2001 team was recruited BY TURNER AND HIS STAFF. They had been there since 1997.
At that time, Turner had taken over a poor team from Lou Tepper, struggled mightily in year 1, won a few in year 2, and went to a bowl game in year 3. After a slight step back in 2000, we hit the jackpot in 2001.
My question to all of you who have their solidly formed opinions about Turner is “what happened after that”? I don’t really buy the notion that he just started recruited players headed for Dayton and NIU. He had before then held out for players like Brandon Lloyd, Christian Morton etc. Why after a BCS bowl game would he turn into a recruiting chicken? Something else must have happened. Did a key assistant (or set of assistants) leave? Tupp mentioned that his poor relationship with Morton (who never got a shot at being a q-back) may have soured St. Louis recruiting. Anyway, if anyone has any ideas on that, I’d love to have a better idea of what went wrong than what I have read so far.
A second point. I assume you’d agree Tepper didn’t leave much for Turner, either. If that’s the case, why shouldn’t we expect at least the same general trajectory from Zook that we got from Turner? (i.e. a terrible first year (0-11), and improved but bad second year (3-8), and a bowl game in year 3? Or do we?
September 11th, 2006 at 3:10 pm
Algonquin Bill,
You have surpassed Joe John as the most asinine blogger on this site. Your quote was “Ron Guenther has made Illinois sports respectable across the board. The football program is a complete and unmitigated disaster!!! The women’s basketball program is a joke, given the basketball talent in this state. You give him credit for the Men’s Basketball program. Illinois was a Top 4 seed in the NCAA regionals 8 consecutive years–83-90–before RG became AD. The Henson years were great until the Deon Thomas thing came along and slowed us down.
College AD’s at big-time universities are evaluated on major sports–not tennis and wrestling. Come on, any sane individual would admit the guy deserves a D at best. Don’t tell me about fund-raising. Doesn’t anyone remember how Zook lost assistants early one because they could make so much more elsewhere. A winning football program will solve fund-rasing problems!!!! Its time to retire RG NOW!!!!!!!
September 11th, 2006 at 3:44 pm
If some school named Troy that nobody ever heard of had the ability to be competitive with Florida State at their place, then there is absolutely no excuse for Illinois to play such an uncompetitive game at Rutgers. It reflects absolutely terrible coaching, which reflects another absolutely terrible personnel decision by Mr. Guenther. You could simply feel the bad vibes almost from the first play. You have a senior fielding a punt who should have fair catched and not let the ball bounce, but my sense was that it was probably drilled in his head to not make a mistake on the first play. Playing not to lose put Illinois in terrible field postion. Obviously, if you are going to play it that safe, Rutgers does not even bother to think pass and you are stopped cold. Then you are in the worst position possible having a punter who has never punted in a terrible position. The field reporter reported that Zook told his players after the blocked punt that it was his fault for calling the wrong blocking scheme. I tend to believe that because the replay showed the punter did not have much of a chance. In that situation, punt coverage should have been secondary, and calling a scheme where a block was anticipated should have been imperative. Illinois has young players and probably did not have the talent to beat Rutgers. But when your talent is overmatched, they need to be properly coached on taking a fair catch and how to block for a punter when a punt block is anticipated. It truly saddens me to see how low Illinois football has fallen under the leadership of Guenther. There may be a turnaround in the offing but it does not look like it will be this year.
September 11th, 2006 at 4:52 pm
Let Zook hang around to recruit another year, then hire someone who knows the difference between a wide receiver and the center’s arse. I have never had less confidence in our ability to execute basic plays.
I see players on the field who aren’t focusing, who are just going through the motions. The offensive line misses assignments like a high schooler with mono. Brasic likes to compete, but he really loses it when we get down. Did you see his frustration trying to get a snap on the delay of game penalty midway through the 3rd quarter? I wish there was someone to calm him down and focus him, but I have no faith at all in the coaching abilities of this staff or their ability to instill mental discipline.
Ron Zook is like Bill $elf (turn the S backwards for extra Ztupidity) in that he’s a nice, friendly guy who recruits love but who will never develop in his players the resiliency they need to succeed.
September 11th, 2006 at 5:12 pm
Ryan - Cool big fella. I just read your bench numbers and felt a little jealous. You gotta see these for what they are. I give a ludicrous punting stat and not one person says a thing. I don’t even ask for Zooks head and the whole board goes to hell.
Dave Wilson - If you don’t think you can turn around a moribund program after two years then please do not reference Bob Stoops or Charlie Weiss or Pete Carroll etc, etc. I don’t know if this guy can coach or not. Bigger question is when will you homers know?
Homer question: How can a program fire a guy who went 7-4 and improve? How can a program fire a guy who went 10-2 and improve? Maybe that’s how you become a Florida or an Ohio State.
Editor Boy - I just figured it out you would rather be nice than good. You probably have Care Bears in your room! Guenther hopes for patience? I would to if I was incompetant. What better way to squeeze your employer for every last paycheck. And you accuse me of being a one trick pony. Try just once calling it like it is!! As for Juice I couldn’t care less if he starts or not. But seems to me if ya gotta suck go with the guy who might learn from it!
I nominate Peggy for best post!!!! (Be careful Peggy I said the same thing month’s ago and was roundly crticized. Although they won’t say a thing to you since it aint me!!!)
I leave you with this: It aint so much the head coach as it is the assistants. Go look at the Cowboys of the early ninties. Norv Turner, Butch Davis, Dave Wannstedt,Dave Campo, Hudson Houck, Joe Avazzano Put together a real staff and success follows. By the way these were the same guys at Miami when they were killing people.
Please disregard the last advice. I don’t know what I am talking about and sombody will just steal the thought anyway!
September 11th, 2006 at 6:05 pm
#68 - I take that as a compliment, because Joe John has set VERY high standards for being asinine. Also, that is high praise coming from you….because of all people, you should know knee-jerk, unintelligent, shoot-from-the-hip stupid comments.
But before you start firing next time, you might want to think about answering all of my comments, not just the ones you cherry pick.
I stand by my comments regarding the football program. We are rebuilding…so I can live with seasons like last and games like Saturdays. And you why? Becasue Zook is doing it the right away, bringing in high-quality freshman, not 2-year Junior college rent-a-players. We will take our lumps, but we will get better. And if not…in 2 years…you can fire noth Guenther AND Zook. As for Women’s H S basketball talent in Illinois…I don’t follow it: I have a life. Just kidding, gals!!
And don’t preach to me about Lou Henson. I revere Coach Henson…he is a great coach, a good man, and a personal friend. But I STILL give Ron G credit for hiring not 1…but 3 excellent coaches to carry the torch after Coach Henson left. He cannot be held accountable for Krueger jumping ship to the mighty Atlanta Hawks, and Bill Selfish jumping to Kansas. But each time there has been an opening, he went out and got the best coach availble. And PLEASE don’t don’t go down the Thad Matta path.
So I still defend R G….and I’m still here.
September 11th, 2006 at 6:31 pm
RPIC Editor BoyToy- Maybe they do need to get tougher as Freshmen. My point is that it is a little funny Britt blaming the loss on Freshman losing steam and not being ready for college life. Color me wrong if you wish, but I think the problem may be a little bit deeper than that. And it may have nothing to do with the Freshmen (most of which didn’t travel.)
September 11th, 2006 at 6:57 pm
Gerry T - I loved that post! So many on this blog act as if the Illini hoops have been good SW (since Weber) We have always been a pretty nice hoops program and a joke of a football program. I’m with you. Can any of these Guenther apologists name a big time AD who stinks at fundraising. Dear God even the Kentucky football program has added on to the stadium, built a new indoor workout facility and had a number 1 pick in the NFL draft. (I’m sorry but Jeff George was a hoosier (yes I know he came from Purdue!) and a transfer so he doesn’t count). AD’s at big time schools are supposed to accomplish big time things! That’s why they are at big time schools!!!
Brandon - I don’t start it! Ryan started a long time ago and once you start you can’t go back. If you think I meant a new entry squares us back to zero, well that’s just dumb!
Editor boy - Jeff Irvine basically says he couldn’t care less about football and you let that slide? Surprising! Talk about a one trick pony!!! Did you really say to Jake that it is okay to run a guy out without giving him a chance but it is another to crucify him without giving him a chance? What in the wide world of sports are you talking about!!!!!
Marlin - You agree with a post that said next to nothing of substance. You are more confusing than Pistol Pete. I am glad you are back. I would have gotten a big head thinking I ran you off that easy!
Final thought: Don James the old Washington coach was pounding Michigan in a Rose Bowl and was disgusted at what he saw. That night he told all his coaches that they had to get faster if they wanted to win the National Championship (apparently the Rose Bowl is not all you play for). He told them after that night they were personably responsible for the fory time of each and every recruit they brought in. If the guy clocked at fall practice slower than they said he could run it was goodbye to them! The result was the one and only National Championship team at Washington. I don’t know about you Homers but I take from this story one thing. Demand excellence and eliminate excuses and excellence follows.
Maybe this is more your speed: There is no try. You either do or you don’t - Yoda
September 11th, 2006 at 7:32 pm
Honey!! The kids are at it AGAIN downstairs. It’s getting worse by the post, er, I mean minute. It’s the “Can You Top THIS Insult?” game now. Is there ANYTHING we can do to get ‘em to grow up and quit whining? Honey…Honey…HONEY!!!
September 11th, 2006 at 10:23 pm
Kentucky Mike #71 - I agree with your statement that you have to have good assistant coaches. They are the one who are working with the kids day in and day out. they are calling plays and helping set line ups. However, Zook is ultimately responsible as he hired them and Gunther is responsible after that. I’m not asking for Zooks head yet. At this point I think we need to stick with him for another two years before we pass judgement on his coaching ability. Firing him and starting over would just be like starting all over again and I’m not sure that is the thing to do. I say we give him another two years of recruiting and see how things shake out. Rome wasn’t built in a day and neither is the Illini football program.
I don’t like this stupid no huddle offense. What does it gain us? It’s not as if we are running a hurry up offense, they still barely get the plays off in time. It’s not catching the defense off gaurd. All it is doing is making it difficult for our offense to be organized and know what the play is and on what count they are running it. (obviously we don’t know the count given the number of off side penalties.) I don’t think we have a good offensive or defensive coordinator at this point. Although the defense did look better than last year. (Couldn’t be much worse than last year). What happened to this new improved offensive line we were supposed to have? They couldn’t stop my grandma from rushing the QB and she has been dead for 10 years.
I think what makes this so hard to swallow is the way the media and coaches build this team up every spring and summer and get your hopes up. Then wham, the same old same old. There needs to be some changes, but I don’t what those need to be.
OK I’m getting down off my soap box now. Were’s the orange koolaid and rainbow stew? I really need a strong drink tonight.
September 11th, 2006 at 11:14 pm
Editor, we’re just going to have to agree to disagree. We have a good rivalry with MSU; there’s no need to hate Izzo, its evolved out of a number of close contests on the court. I sense the same sort of thing will happen with OSU in the future. Nothing, absolutely nothing can be “good” in any sort of way about Kelvin poaching recruits. That’s why he’s been denounced by 8 of the other conference coaches. We had a “spicy” (to use Tupper’s word) rivalry with IU during the Knight era because of on-court competition and Bobby’s attitude-but Bobby didn’t try to re-recruit people. If its good to have a rivalry with IU again, then let it evolve out of on-court competition.
In short, the “bitterness” was well on its way in July, and only the most incredibly short-sighted people could have viewed it as a “kind of a good thing” back then (and of course, pulled a 180 now). Kelvin wasn’t going to quit recruiting EJ no matter what. As noted, it could make for a few good stories on slow days, but that’s a benefit only for sportswriters.
Paul/Atlanta: I see where you’re coming from when you say Gordon has reopened his recruiting, but I’m not sure that’s the word I would choose. If he was back to 3-4 schools, making numerous visits, etc then I’d say “re-opened”. But right now it seems he knows everything he wants to know about Illinois. I don’t think he’s calling the coaching staff to find out more. He may or may not change his commitment to IU, but he won’t be an “uncommitted” recruit.
And on the “polishing a turd” comment: I think most fans thought that the turd would look better by now. Better than 33-0. I don’t think people expected a finished product, but this was a step backward and people aren’t happy at all.
The turd has been on the field for the Zook, Turner and Tepper eras. People are tired of looking at it, and words about “improvement” aren’t being taken seriously while we lose bad-and observers seem to say that it wasn’t even as close as the score indicated. Apathy is getting closer and closer IMHO. That’s the attitude that’s going to be tough to change.
September 12th, 2006 at 12:14 am
How do we not have a punter. That should be the easiest sell in recruiting! Just tell him he is gonna get to punt 20 times a game! What punter wouldn’t want to come to Illinois?
September 12th, 2006 at 8:06 am
I think keeping Zook for one or two more years is a great idea. Then when the cuboard is full we can hire someone who can coach. If I have ever seen a team that needs to huddle and make sure everyone knows there assignment’s it’s this one. If you are smart you can settle down your kids. What bothers me the most is how unprepared our football team looked. I knew our defense had problems and Brit Miller got embarassed by there big tight end. But I thought we could finally move the chains and we can’t. Not with this offense. So I question Zook. Is he smart enough to get the job done? Right now he looks like Gary Moeller. I hope he doesn’t end like him. Huddle up Ron and run a straight ahead offense and play action pass and get someone open. Stop replacing 5 players on every play. Offense is a rythum. I’ve said enough I’m done thanks for letting me get that off my chest.
September 12th, 2006 at 8:06 am
Last Saturday’s showing against Rutgers has got Illinois fans thinking if the rumors are true: Zook may be a recruiter, but is not a game manager…and the team is showing it. Syracuse is the last chance for Zook to show he has full control of this football team. Otherwise, I don’t care how many good athletes he brings in here: if your coaching staff isn’t on the same page, then you can’t show a team the right way to win. So Zooker, my advice to you is: get focused, get a clue…(please get rid of that no-huddle), and go win some football games.
P.S.: a guy you need to point a finger at is Ron Guenther. This midget of a man let the Turner regime go on far too long. Please, Board of Trustees, don’t extend this man’s contract. Bring back Craig Tiley to save the sports programs at Illinois, please?
September 12th, 2006 at 8:22 am
In a school of some 35,000 students, there has to be someone who can punt the ball more than 20 yards. Zook should hold open tryouts and fix the problem.
September 12th, 2006 at 8:56 am
Illini4Ever - Yelton was rated as the #3 punter in the nation. Zook and/or his coaches have messed with his stepping and gotten him all messed up. They want him to do the two step instead of three.
September 12th, 2006 at 9:24 am
Nah, I care about Illinois football alot. It’s the “Shark’s kids” bickering BS from all you experts on BOTH sides that puts me to sleep here. In the end, do you guys think anyone that matters at the University of Illinois Administration, the Athletic Office or Board of Regents gives one “Chalupa” about any of this drivel? It is JUST a blog. I would respond to some things that make sense and are valid arguments, but it always seems to turn into a childish game of “my knowledge is better than YOUR knowledge”. I used to play, but I grew up and got a real job so to speak. But it IS entertaining..up to a point. Then it becomes BORING and I take a nap. I need my rest ya know..I’m an old man. One other thing. I’d give BIG BUCKS to see some of you internet wise guys say some of this stuff face-to-face with the person you’re ripping! I bet alot of ya would back off big time! And I’d REALLY like to see ya say some of your stuff to the AD, football and bball coaches IN PERSON. Boy, now that would be worth staying up for, baby!! You guys are so BRAVE ya don’t have the guts to put your REAL and FULL names behind your venom, let alone confront someone you rip face-to-face! And don’t give me that “loose cannon” jazz. I do sign my real name and ain’t nobody ever tried to bother me! Ok, can someone get a ladder? I need help getting down off this soapbox. GO ILLINI!!
September 12th, 2006 at 10:20 am
Gerry T. #62: I do NOT vehemently support Ron Guenther.
But I won’t sit idly by while self-proclaimed experts vehemently condemn the man in charge of Illini athletics.
The higher-ups who have seen fit to retain Ron Guenther as Director of Athletics have greater competence in making such decisions than any of the self-proclaimed “experts” in this blog, and anyone with a lick of common sense knows that, koolaid notwithstanding.
September 12th, 2006 at 10:31 am
OK…. In a student body of 40,000 is there not one good ex-high school punter? Really, it CAN’T be worse than Saturday.
Coach, hold a tryout for crying out loud!
September 12th, 2006 at 10:59 am
KY Mike: You tossed out the following:
“Dave Wilson - If you don’t think you can turn around a moribund program after two years then please do not reference Bob Stoops or Charlie Weiss or Pete Carroll etc, etc. I don’t know if this guy can coach or not. Bigger question is when will you homers know?”
You are telling us, then, that the condition in which these coaches inherited the OK, ND and USC programs was as abysmal as what Zook inherited at Illinois? News to me. Was OK really abysmal? I don’t recall so, unles syou deem failure to beat TX abysmal.
Willingham in particular left ND in pretty good shape. The correct analogy IMO is closer to Ferentz inheriting the Hayden Fry dry well at Iowa.
When will the homers know (and I’m not a homer; I haven’t deemed it worth the cross-country airfare to Champaign for football since 2001)? Not for at least two seasons, I’d say.
I agree completely, however (and with someone else who noted the same rgarding our implosion under Turner), that the key to recruiting is the assistants. Paterno found that out a couple years ago.
September 12th, 2006 at 12:08 pm
Jeebus- I can’t believe I just read this whole thing! Just a few thoughts.
1. Spread offense and no huddle blows chunks.
2. Run the freakin football more out of power formations.
3. If we don’t find a decent punter by the Iowa game…
4. Randy Taylor: Director of Football Operations. Tim Brewster: Head Coach.
September 12th, 2006 at 12:17 pm
Winston #59: Illinois has played in 14 bowl games since 1946, 4 of them on Guenther’s watch since 1992.
And yet you contend that HE turned the program into a turd?
And Winston #64: you did a great job copying and pasting the parts of that article that YOU agree with.
Hell, James Carville hisself couldn’t have done a better spin job.
But of course you skipped right over the good stuff:
“The only good news is that Illinois has the right guy undertaking this enormous task.”
Gerry T. #68: here in the modern, post-Title IX world, an athletic director’s job is about WAY more than just football and basketball, but you need to PAY ATTENTION to what’s going on to know things like that.
Please give a mighty heave, pull your head out of your butt and feel free to join us here in the 21st century.
KY Mike #71: quit flattering yourself.
This blog will NEVER “go to hell” over anything you could ever say.
Hayden #73: didn’t intend to diss you with that comment about the freshmen. It’s just that I happen to know that young Mr. Miller is not one to make excuses.
KY Mike #74: Jeff Irvine has made as many posts in this blog as anyone since it started, but he has NEVER quoted Yoda.
You’re not actually some kind of Star Wars nerd, are you?
Illini88 #77: I guess we’ll just have to agree to respect each other’s opinion, no matter how wrong yours might be…
My point was that Tupps was merely implying that the ONLY good thing that could come from Sampson’s below-the-belt tactics might be the rekindling of the old border rivalry.
But we both know that it was always more of a Henson-Knight rivalry than it ever was an Illini-Hoosier rivalry.
You gotta admit… Kelvin’s doing a helluva job laying the foundation for an intense relationship with his counterpart in Champaign.
September 12th, 2006 at 12:24 pm
RPIC Editor Boy: You make no sense. Are you implying that if we criticize Saint Guenther that we are “bad” fans?
I quote from the Illiniboard: “It is this type of thinking from a fanbase that gets a program to the laughingstock status that the UI program currently holds. Essentially the credo is that to be a “good fan” one must: 1) accept losing without complaint; 2)never question the performance of a player, coach, or administrator; and 3) keep short term expectations low enough to excuse any poor performance as expected (ex. “we knew we would lose to Rutgers anyway, so what’s the big deal”), unavoidable (ex. “UM and OSU will always be better because they have tradition and/or cheat”), or a step in the right direction (ex. “at least we made NW throw the ball in the second half this year…maybe we are on to something.”). Finally, to be a good fan one must always assume that a positive turnaround is on the way based on the mere continuation of the current coach’s methods, despite the absence of any evidence that said methods will be successful.
It is this line of thinking on the part of a large segment of the fan base that emboldens an athletic department to do things such as retaining one head coach who goes through 3 offensive coordinators in 4 years and another who goes 0-11 in D1 play in the seventh year of his program. It is no wonder that the athletic department does not think twice about raising ticket prices in spite of three consecutive last place finishes.”
In addition, no fan need volunteer their services or apply for the coaching position to justify their criticism of this program. The fans have supported this program through a streak of 0 road wins and 1 conference win since 2003 and have done so in such a manner that the department apparently feels comfortable raising ticket and parking prices and renovating the stadium. Furthermore, RZ is not being paid 5 million to be better than the posters on this board. He is being paid 5 million to be better than the other coaches in the B10. So was the coach before him and we see how that turned out.”
$15 parking prices. Roll on that!
September 12th, 2006 at 1:19 pm
for anonymous #88 (whose writing style is similar to that of RPIC Editor Boy: Yes, I contend that Ron Guenther has turned the football program into a turd. The previous AD/head coach, John Mackovic, took the program to 4 bowl games in 4 years. Since Saint Guenther took over, it’s 4 bowl games in 15 years.
September 12th, 2006 at 4:50 pm
“Homer question: How can a program fire a guy who went 7-4 and improve? How can a program fire a guy who went 10-2 and improve? Maybe that’s how you become a Florida or an Ohio State.”
Since I am a proud homer I feel qualified to answer these questions…at least in reference to the Zook situation in FL…
Zook followed a legend in Spurrier, who by his own admission left the cupboard bare for Zook. The “bare cupboard” was still good enough to win several games in the SEC. He (Zook) refilled the cupboard then got fired and Urban “the Savior” Meyer lost in similar fashion to Zook (lets start an “Urban Must Go” campaign). Another thing Zook had going against him was that the legend he followed, shocked the fan base when he quit on the program, thus hurting all the fickle fans feelings. Zook was doomed before he even arrived because of how he came in and how Spurrier left.
My only guess as to why Cooper got fired is because everyone got tired of finishing second. If Zook takes us to an upper echolon team in the B10 and for several years in a row finishes third or fourth, we the fans, will begin to call for his head. We want to finish second…and then first. Eventually we will forget just how far he has taken us and demand just a little more. There really is no pleasing us. A winning program always gets big donors who threaten to withdrawl their large gifts if the program does not win a national title. I don’t think an AD fires a guy with a winning record, rich alumni do.
One thing is definitely true in the statement “that is how you become FL and OSU.” They are accustomed to winning and anything less is TOTALLY unacceptable. The blog prior to the game…”we just wanted to be competitive.” If we ever fire Zook, I hope it is because he can’t get us past the hump of second place like OSU did to Cooper. Until he gives us a track record that he can’t even improve the talent enought to “be competitive” I think we should just be patient. Let’s at least give him a chance to develop some of that talent before we bring in Brewster!
September 13th, 2006 at 9:15 am
Hey, Mr. Anonymous 88
First of all, it would be nice to have the guts to put your name down. You make many stupid assertions, but I will only respond to those in which you critize me. Probably a monumental waste of tiem as anyone who resorts to such childish comments like “pulling your head out of your butt is not worthy of any kind of reasoning. First of all, Football and to a lesser extent, basketball are the economic engines that drive Major college Athletics. Your beloved AD has been an abyssmal failure in two of the 3. He has presided over the worst 15 year stretch in Illinois football history. You cite 4 bowl games–big deal–7-8 Big Ten teams go to a bowl every year!! Anonymous, I have been a college Athletic Director, so dont need to be lectured on Title IX Athletics. Mr. Guenther may have done some good things, but at the end of the day, you cannot defend the football program or the utter lack of interest in women’s basketball. This is not an indictment of Ron Zook. He inherited a mess beyond comprehension–the worst program in Div. 1–Atlanta Constituion. A horrific Big Ten Record. This happened during the Guenther years. So to those who rip Zook–I say be patient and give him a chance. The blame for the mess that is Illinois football lays at the feet of Ron Turner and the man who hired him. Turner was a terrible hire–look at his Division 1 recruiting expereience prior to coming to Illinois. One year at some western school–Pacific, wasn’t it? No, Mr. Anonymous, if any surgery is needed to remove one’s head, it would be yours, my friend.
September 13th, 2006 at 9:45 am
Gerry T is DA MAN!!! BTW RT’s one year of HC experience prior to Illinois was at San Jose State in 1992. Record was 7-4, Jeff Garcia was the QB.