This time tough enough wasn’t good enough.
And maybe Illinois wasn’t even tough enough in its 72-66 loss to No. 23 Maryland Tuesday night in the ACC/Big Ten Challenge game at the Assembly Hall.
One thing appeared certain after talking with Warren Carter, Shaun Pruitt and Bruce Weber after the game: Once Illinois fought back from a 15-point first-half deficit to take a 5-point lead with less than nine minutes to play, there was a breath of relief, a relaxation in the expectation that another home court victory would surely follow.
But Maryland wasn’t ready to just get on the team plane. Eight straight points by 6-5 freshman Greivis Vasquez kept Maryland in the hunt and the attacking Terrapins took the fight to Illinois, which wilted down the stretch.
Illinois’ guard play was especially troubling. Point guard Chester Frazier tried all night to do too much. He played too fast and was too often out of control. Guards Frazier, Rich McBride, Trent Meacham and Jamar Smith were a combined 5-for-30 shooting.
Illinois turned it over 15 times and some of the turnovers were just embarrassing. Maryland turned it over 17 times, so they were trying to give some of it back.
In the second half, however, Maryland made 13 of 18 shots, 72.2 percent. And after scoring 13 points and grabbing 10 rebounds in the first half, Carter did not score and managed just one rebound in the second half. “Honestly, I just stopped being aggressive,” he lamented.
Pruitt finished with 18 points and 11 rebounds and 15 points and nine of those rebounds came in the second half. And freshman Brian Carlwell gave the Illini a nice lift with eight points and four rebounds, all in the first half. I’d give every available minute to Carlwell rather than Marcus Arnold.
A stern-faced Weber didn’t mince any words when asked if he was angry.
“Yeah, definitely, it sucks,” Weber said. “I’m proud that we have some guys playing through some injuries. We fight back and don’t quit. But some things have to change.
“Shot selection has to improve, careless turnovers, finishing around the basket. Those are the things that have to change if we’re going to make progress.”
Weber was particularly perplexed about another slow start, this time putting Illinois in a 29-14 hole 13 minutes into the game.
“I don’t know if we think it’s going to happen because it has happened so much,” Weber said. “There are only so many clipboards you can break. Sooner or later they have to figure it out on their own. It has to come from within.
“I told them, if you look in the mirror and blame yourself, then we have a chance. If you blame someone else, we don’t.
“Some of it is my fault. I didn’t do a lot of things well enough. But they also have to take some accountability.”
Weber said losing at home should never happen, regardless who plays and who doesn’t. Jamar Smith played just 15 rather unproductive minutes when Weber put him on the bench, realizing that recurring pain in his sprained ankle was putting him at a competitive disadvantage. He was a step behind all night. “He just doesn’t have strength in his foot yet,” Weber said.
Frazier did not practice the last two days with an injury that is part sprained ankle, part sprained toe. He injured himself in the first half of the Bradley game when he leaped over the Illini bench chasing a loose ball. And, of course, Brian Randle continues to sit.
Maryland was without senior forward and leading rebounder Ekene Ibekwe, who sat with an ankle sprain.
Weber has to solve the poor play that leads to a string of awful starts. Poor shot selection early is part of it, but there’s more going on there. He inserted McBride into the starting lineup because he wanted a veteran out there who can defend, but McBride is 12 for 41 shooting since returning from his suspension and has not played well.
“We’ve had a lot of games and not many practices and maybe it cost us,” Weber said. “We haven’t had a real practice since Austin Peay. But we don’t have time to cry. We just have to see if we can gut something out against Arizona.”
I’m sure there will be doom and gloom (an easy prediction) but I’m going to be more patient. Illinois didn’t play well for much of the game Tuesday, no doubt about that. They’ll probably lose Saturday at Arizona. But this team will learn and improve and eventually get healthy. It will figure out some of its problems. This is a work in progress and the work isn’t done.
Pruitt said it hurt to be walking to the locker room and hear the Maryland players celebrate winning on Illinois’ home floor. Fix some of these problems, especially the slow starts, or it will happen again.
November 28th, 2006 at 11:37 pm
Will they heal? Jamar, Brian and now Chester seem to have injuries that are going to nag them all season long. No way to rest and rehab in the middle of a season.
Tip well,
Waitress
November 28th, 2006 at 11:45 pm
“I’d give every available minute to Carlwell rather than Marcus Arnold.”
agreed! This kid is a spark plug and gives us a lift everytime he is on the floor. He is like a 6′10″ Dee Brown in his demeanor. I like him alot. He has a nose for the ball and soft hands. Reminds me of Brian Cook catching the interior passes.
Extremely pleased he did not red-shirt. We are going to need him this year.
I have to add my take on McBride. I have stuck up for McBride in the past. I cannot tonight. He is either tired or lazy or both. His defense is good but evidently not sustainable. Some lapsed tonight really cost us. Mental mistakes like he made tonight will kill us if they continue.
Folks, I dont know why we look for leadership from McBride, he has never given us a reason to think he is a leader. If he can just play solid defense and hit a few three’s each game I will be satisfied. But lets look for leadership elsewhere.
Lets see how the boys react to this and see if they can bounce back against Arizona. I believe they can.
The Mizzou game is starting to scare me a little.
November 28th, 2006 at 11:53 pm
I doubt this get published, BUT, this loss, as well as the struggles against Miami-OH and Bradley, are the results of our lack of talent..
our recruiting losses are finally catching up with us, and with the B10 getting stronger, things are only going to get worse…
It saddens me, but I feel that I’m seeing a repeat of what happened to our FB in the last couple of years under Turner…
Us, “pessimists”, kept on saying that our recruiting failure will impact us, and no amount of good coaching can compensate for lesser talent…
pathetic…
November 29th, 2006 at 12:05 am
I think we are in some real trouble with our Guard play and not just for this year. I am puzzled as to Bruces lack of ability in getting top guards to come to U of I yet? I love our Bigs, but why Bruce has not landed a top guard (Dimitri McCamey aside) to come here so far is beyond me! You would think the NC run in 05 and the last few years of success would almost sell itself. Weber must really do something that rubs recruits the wrong way. He’s a hell of a coach though and I love him for that, But maybe he should follow Zook around and observe what hes doing or something! If Zook can sell the Illini Football program the way he has so far with all its problems the last few years, why can’t Weber sell the Basketball program with all its success the last few years?
November 29th, 2006 at 12:33 am
This was the first time that I had a chance to see this IL basketball team on TV and all I can say is “how sad of a team”, And “how low have we sunk” or “how quickly we have fallen from grace” in less than two years.
Given the fact that nearly all of us agree that Mr. Weber is fairly a good caoch, do the “homers” on this blog still insist that the lack of blue-chip players on our team doesn’t matter…that Mr. weber is a such a Superman of a coach that he can actually take bunch of three stars (or lower) palyers and sustain an excellent program and/or win a national championship? Guys, please grow-up or get serious about your views as your argument has been shot to heck in just one serious game. Start counting the Ls pile-up and/or dearly held records end because the good ole days are over. Let’s just hope that our Basketball will not end-up where our football has.
With the rapid fall of our basketball, congratulations now are also in order to Mr. Guenther for finally accomplishing both of his objectives, i.e., the complete destruction of the IL sports and the dumbing-down of its trusting and decent fans. Another question for the “homers” on this blog, is it or is it not time now for Mr. Guenther to go?
As for the game itself…wow, what a mish mash…they reminded me of the days when Lou Henson’s teams were a bunch of nervous nillies who were disorganized, couldn’t make baskets or FTs, couldn’t in-bound the ball, couldn’t block shots, couldn’t defend when it mattered, had lots of turnovers, had no floor leader…on and on and on. All these at home against a team who’s big man wasn’t playing and had a Freshman spank the crap out of us. Another question for the “homers” on this blog…with the recruiting pipeline totally void of top recruits, do you now agree that our Baskteball program is rapidly declining?
Any of our “homers” on this blog may tackle these questions…but we particularly would like to hear from our friends, Brandon, RPIC EDITOR BOY and, of course, the know-it-all none other than Professor Algonquin Bill. We just can’t wait to hear your explanations…or should I say, your “apologists’ views”
As REB would say, go ahead guys…we are listening…”carry on”!
November 29th, 2006 at 2:50 am
That post really summed up the game for the Illini. The guards basically did not play against a tough Maryland opponent. Hard to win without the guards playing, that’s for sure. Now beating Arizona seems like a long shot, but I will be there in Phoenix anyway. I still have hope that Weber can turn this team around, but this group has some real weaknesses.
November 29th, 2006 at 3:30 am
I think Weber said it best when he said, “Yeah, definitely, it sucks.” 72.2% shooting in the second half for Maryland? Wow, that just can’t happen. I am sure the team will learn from this loss; hopefully they will have their issues worked out when Big Ten play begins.
November 29th, 2006 at 5:04 am
Considering that many of our players are carrying injuries or are fully immobilized, the fact that we haven’t played top competition before this game, and the fact that we made a major comeback to nearly win, the results of this game are not that bad. Yes, we don’t have rhythm and polish, but it’s early days. And, yes, we do make a habit of being double digits down, but I seem to recall a series of similar games in the latter stages of the national tournament in 2004-05 where Illinois was in a similar situations with slightly better and more experienced personnel. I think Coach Weber gets the kids to battle to the bitter end, and who can ask for more?
November 29th, 2006 at 5:12 am
What has happened to the vaunted Illini passing attack? How many passes were there last night without the ball hitting the ground? CRK
November 29th, 2006 at 5:31 am
It appears that the “buzz word” among coaches and sportswriters this year is the team has to “find its identity”
For example, this morning that new coach at Indiana, I don’t recall his name. was quoted “We’ve got to find something we’re good at. We can’t spend the season walking through someone else’s living room with a blindfold on. We’ll keep hitting things. We’ve got to find an identity.”
Dosen’t finding an identity mean finding a team identity?
I would think finding a team identity begins with one of the fundamentals - passing.
CRK
November 29th, 2006 at 7:37 am
Easy observations: KY Mike is right. We have effort, we don’t have talent. Maryland looked quicker, stronger, and they simply shot the ball better.
Chester Frazier had better start producing offensively or the other teams will completely ignore him. He doesn’t look to score at all.
Sean Pruitt looks like our ‘go-to’ guy for the year. I like him a lot and he is a good player in the big10, but he can’t carry a team like say Tucker at Wisconsin. We don’t have the one stud that can get it done when it really counts.
We will continue to rely on the ‘3′ and when we don’t make them, we are in real trouble - see last night. The Maryland shots had a nice high arc to them, our team seems to shoot flat shots. Maybe the coach should look at that and get them to adjust.
I have heard Randle was improved on offense, but I will have to see it to believe it. It is the only hope I see right now.
The slow starts are probably due to the fact the other teams are more talented, and then they relax and we come back and momentum carried us. Against Maryland, they simply turned it back on at their will and reversed a 5-point deficit.
I assume we shot the ‘3′ poorly because we were defended. I say again the shots looked flat. Hopefully more of those drop against Arizona. The way we are playing right now, I see us as a middle of the pack big10 team that could lose at home to good teams, and will struggle on the road all year. If we make the NCAA tourney, which is more in question with the success of the mid-majors (fewer big10 teams could go) we will be a low seed and early exit. We could surprise some teams as we could ’sneak’ up on them. Not many good teams will show us much respect, especially when we travel.
The positives from last night, well, it’s like beating your head against the wall, it feels better when you stop.
November 29th, 2006 at 7:52 am
Mcbride didnt just stink with his shot - he was just plain in the other guys way. Dang! ..at least let the other 4 play.
Dave Z
November 29th, 2006 at 7:55 am
The Maryland game was the first televised Illini game I have been able to see this season. In that game, it appeared Rich McBride is to Illini basketball what E.B. Halsey has been to Illini football… great expectations but counterproductive performance.
November 29th, 2006 at 8:27 am
I knew that todays posts would be increadibly negative, but wow! Is last nights loss something that no one saw coming? I’ll be honest, I kind of figured this would happen. Our team is young, inexperienced and yes not that talented.
Lets try and take something good from the loss. They battled back from a large deficit and made the game interesting against a good Maryland team. We did see some good play from our bigs.
Lets just face the fact that our young team is going to look bad at times, as most young teams do. They are not going to shoot well most of the time. It will be a couple of years until the Illini are back to that dominate level of play, but it will happen. Be patient, let Bruce do his thing and it will all work out.
November 29th, 2006 at 8:27 am
If one were to make an observation from this game: 1. Since this is now Weber’s team, Bruce truly can’t recruit guards. This collection was just awful last night. 2. Our bigs aren’t so bad. If it weren’t for Warren,Brian & Shaun, this game wouldn’t have been that close. 3. Forget finishing in the top 3 of the Big Ten, I’m seeing this team at #7. 4. McBride needs to be benched permanently!!!! He gave away the ball way too many times in the final minutes and he takes the offense out of their flow by standing around. 5. It’s going to be a long cold winter.
November 29th, 2006 at 8:31 am
Brian Carlwell was great last night. I can’t believe Weber wanted to redshirt him. What was he thinking? And Mark, thank you for this comment: “I’d give every available minute to Carlwell rather than Marcus Arnold.” Don’t expect any Christmas cards from RPIC Editor Boy! Yes, Rich McBride is the EB Halsey of the basketball program.
Jamar Smith is a streak shooter. Unfortunately, last night was a bad streak. Also the defense was terrible. Too many open jump shots.
November 29th, 2006 at 9:10 am
Agreed that I found some good news in this loss. It’s a rebuilding year.
They need to fix their slow starts. And McBride needs to watch the rest of the season from the bench.
But the big men looked solid and BC is going to be a player.
November 29th, 2006 at 9:19 am
Playoffs? You’re talking playoffs? (OOPS, that’s Jim Mora, wrong story)…seriously, I’d like to see Bruce go back to his original starting 5, and bring McBride and Smith off the bench until they’ve earned their time. McBride was just horrible, huge disappointment…Frazier has to become a better student of the game (walking the ball up the floor with less than a minute to go? Where’s the damn urgency?)…Brock’s got to realize that his best asset is his athleticism, which means go to the basket ’cause good things will happen…Meacham has to stay within his framework of what he can/can’t do…but Warren Carter, I’m issuing you a challenge: THIS IS YOUR TEAM…DEMAND THE BALL IN THE 2ND HALF! He and Pruitt have to have touches everytime down, or this team will struggle…
November 29th, 2006 at 9:35 am
Long, long season in progress… glad to see finally that Bruce said openly what the homers have long denied. Wonder why OSU is No. 1 in hoops this week? Thad Matta and a stellar freshman recruiting class, not Jamar Butler and seasoned upperclassmen. And this is w/o Oden. Can’t even imagine how scary they will be once he starts.
We could overlook the Providence debacle in Madison Sq Garden in 12/03 because Weber was brand new and inherited a team that liked Self. But last night… well, last night the Illini reminded me of how Maryland has played in recent seasons. An NC is no guarantee of consistent annual recruiting bounty; Gary Williams is testament to that.
Ugly stuff. But then again we’re rebuilding, right? Having lost only two major players. Yeah. Well, I’m sure that Norman Dale will have us ready for the sectionals.
November 29th, 2006 at 9:44 am
Sounds to me like we’re feeling much the same as we did in Coach Weber’s first season. Many of us were ready to run him out of town before he had gotten into March. Can you say, Providence? While I, too, was extremely disappointed with last night’s performance, disgusted at times, I’m taking a wait and see attitude. This team had not had the chance to play one game together. Practice as a group in total has been severely limited, if at all.
I agree with the fact we should not be looking at RMc as the team leader. Give us some 3’s and play “D” but if he’s our go-to-guy in the clutch or our team leader……..we’re in trouble.
Take it easy folks. We’ve played only 8 games of a very long season and the only loss we have is against a ranked opponent. Granted, we should have/could have won that game but let’s see how these guys come together and let’s give Bruce Weber the opportunity to see if he can bring these guys to another level. He’s done it before. Or do you guys all think Bill Self would have gotten to the National Championship game 2 years ago?
Hang in there. If it’s still like this in late January……I’ll admit we stink, too.
November 29th, 2006 at 9:53 am
I couldn’t believe we shot about 35% and Maryland shot 70% (in the 2nd half) and we were down five with two minutes to go. No doubt, we lost this game. The first 10 minutes, we were outplayed, and there was a definite let-up of intensity when we went up 5.
All that and two of our best players benched with injuries. We were beat in the 1st half, but we lost in the 2nd…they looked mentally and physically weary.
That said, we can learn from this defeat and grow and improve. Can’t wait for them to have a week off to practice.
November 29th, 2006 at 10:03 am
Frazier simpluy is NOT talented enough to be a Division I, big-time program point guard. Why he thinks it was an insult that U of MD did not recruit him is beyond me — Illinois should not have either. He’s a good third guard, off the bemch. His kinetic energy works against him. Points need to be poised and he is not. Guess he will wear a disguise next time he returms to Baltimore.
November 29th, 2006 at 10:17 am
Call me a homer if you will, but I for one am not ready to say the sky is falling. We lost one game, and to a hot shooting and confident team that happens to be pretty darn good. And we did this without one of our best players (Randle), another who’s still hobbled (Smith) and one who’s struggling to find his game after missing a big chunk of the early season (McBride). If we can get healthy and get some practice time, expect this team to get much better. And we’re not bad now.
One of the positives I got from last night is I thought Meacham, Brock and Carlwell showed pretty well in a high profile game and will be valuable contributors this season. Don’t panic, folks. Unless we lose a second game, of course. Then it’s time to fire the coach, revoke all the kid’s scholarships, disband the program and start play on the club level.
November 29th, 2006 at 10:41 am
One loss does not destroy everything that this team is trying to accomplish. The fact that they were able to come back from such a deficit against a pretty good team shows that there is talent. Brock and Meacham are not being as aggressive offensively as they were before McBride returned. The coaches need to correct that and push them to look for their shots a great deal more. Also,Randle will greatly improve the offense and defense.
November 29th, 2006 at 10:59 am
It never ceases to amaze me how quickly Illini fans will jump ship at the first sign of trouble. While that game was very rough, this is not “our team.” We played the Maryland game, against a top 25 team largely without our two most talented players. Even though ESPN refused to point out that our “best player” in Brian Randle was out and possibly our best offensive threat in Jamar Smith was obviously hampered and didn’t play in the second half and barely played in the first half, we were still able to give a tough Maryland team a tough game.
While this is the team that we will have to play with for the near future, this is NOT our team. Think back to the last few years. If our top two players were out and how we would have fared against a ranked opponent? Last year without Dee and James? 2005 without Deron and Dee?
This team started slow but showed guts coming back and taking the lead. Simply,we ran out of gas and were held hostage by Rich McBride making a mistake, compounding it with a bad shot and then another mistake on a couple of different occasions.
Those of you jumping ship and jumping on the sky is falling because Bruce can’t recruit should go root for Kansas. We have the talent to do well this year, but the place where we are really hurting now is leadership. Randle and Jamar were going to be two of the leaders of this team, now for whatever period we will be without them. Lets hope that Chester,
Warren, and Sean can hold down the fort until the reinforcements arrive. Regardless of what the chicken littles on this board say, the sky isn’t falling, yet. I can’t remember a big ten team who has made the Big Dance or been kept out of the Big Dance solely on their pre-conference schedule.
November 29th, 2006 at 11:14 am
Easy fix, Coach Weber needs to realize the McBride is only a breather provider for the other players, he is in his fourth year and he still forces bad shots, misses open shots, settles for jump shots, makes poor decisions and generally plays lackadaisical defense. Calvin Brock has earned the right to play ahead of him.
November 29th, 2006 at 11:15 am
Re: Weber’s “recruiting failures”, don’t forget, it’s Weber’s recruits that kept us in this game. Someone said we should have landed the best recruits after the Championship year. I’d like to remind you that Maryland actually won a championship game, and 2 years later, missed the NCAA Tournament, for 2 years in a row. So a single awesome year isn’t enough. And don’t forget, Weber got completely screwed by a young kid who’s looking to be a hero in Indiana. We have a good recruiting class coming in despite that guy. But let’s not get ahead of ourselves.
I’d like to see Pruitt kick the ball out when he gets the ball and realizes he’s out of position. But that’ll come with practice. I-L-L
November 29th, 2006 at 11:41 am
Is the sky really falling?
The Illini lost their two best players to the NBA, two of its top five players didn’t play half the game combined and some of our fans are panicking. Ridiculous, ludicrous, absurd, bizarre and silly.
We will have growing pains and we will lose games. The key is to keep growing or improving throughout the season. Our guards shots didn’t fall but they did attack the rim.
November 29th, 2006 at 11:44 am
Weber is a good coach but we all can see has a real problem in recruiting. Mcbride is like my golf game, 1 good hole out of 9. He has about 1 good game out of 5. I should quit golf and he should be gone or at least on the bench. Weber will take average talent to an ncaa level.
November 29th, 2006 at 1:05 pm
McBride is what in my generation we used to call a gunner. Me, me ,me. Let me take the shot. And who cares about the other aspects of basketball Especially Teamwork. In my day, NO ONE wanted to play with a “gunner”. Get jamar Smith and Brian Randle healthy. With those 2 playing and healthy and McBride sitting on the bench, we win that game!
November 29th, 2006 at 1:37 pm
Who said a few days ago that they were tired of hearing about Dee and they were better team than last year.
November 29th, 2006 at 1:38 pm
1. One player out with injury and we lose 4 games in the B10. No way a team this thin makes the FF. Do da name “flying illini” ring a bell?
2. Entire team of top 20 talent and lose at home to Oral Roberts, this can’t happen. Do da name Kansas ring a bell?
Teams have good nights and bad nights. Better talent wins more games, but Kansas proves falacy in dogma that better talent wins all games.
To rate this team based upon three starters out or hurt and a senior who is a liability but must play due to shortages is insane. We might prove to be weaker, but it is far too early to predict this.
My biggest concern is Jamar’s ankle. I said earlier on this board that high ankle sprains are insidius and have crippled the career of many. LET JAMAR HEAL AND IF IT CONTRIBUTES TO SOME EARLY LOSSES, SO BE IT.
November 29th, 2006 at 1:54 pm
The Weber apologists who patrol the board spend too much time making excuses for the guy instead of addressing the problem. A kid coached by Mr. Mid-Major’s brother left the state & Mr. Mid-Major got outworked on a kid that had given him a verbal commitment. Mr. Mid-Major has swung and missed more on the recruiting trail than Dave Kingman in his prime. Face it: regardless if it’s recruiting or a game for the national championship Mr. Mid-Major can’t close the deal.
I find it very disturbing that Mr. Mid-Major told his players to look in the mirror & be honest when he hasn’t been honest w/the fans & himself. Self’s players took the heat off his recruiting failures by winning games. Now that the Self players are gone, the recruiting is still bad & the team’s struggling.
But to try & salve the wounds of recruiting failues, Mr. Mid-Major leaks it to the press that he got a commitment from a freshman. Great, Kelvin has four years to snatch him away from Mr. Mid-Major.
Using Mr. Mid-Major’s own words “some of this is my fault.” Agreed. Only the coaching & recruiting aspects of it.
November 29th, 2006 at 1:54 pm
I’m not deeply concerned about the talent level on our team. Sure, we don’t look very talented without Randle and with Smith clearly hobbled… because they’re our two most talented players! Like Bruce said, you can build nice teams with a batch of role players so long as they have some star power around them. Without Smith and Randle, there isn’t really anyone with star power, so we have guys like McBride and Frazier trying to do too much, and we all know they don’t have the athleticism and skill to take that role against good teams.
I’m much more concerned about the lack of intensity at the start of games. We simply don’t play with urgency on defense at the start of games. We also don’t do a good job moving without the ball on offense. Tupps makes a good point that this team has hardly had any practice time in the last couple of weeks, and it really shows on the offensive end. Unfortunately, practice will only help so much; at a certain point, it has to be about players wanting the ball and recognizing the importance of ball movement.
Shot selection is a huge problem right now. McBride has been a primary culprit, but Warren Carter also jacks up two or three ill-advised shots every game. Eliminating stupid shots and focusing on getting the ball inside to Pruitt would buy us an extra three points per game, which makes a huge difference to the quality of our team.
In the midst of the many negatives, there were a couple of positives. First, I thought Meacham and Brock really stepped up in areas where they had been weak this season. Although his shooting was poor, Meacham really got after it on defense and wreaked some havoc where earlier in the season guys were blowing by him. And Brock managed to avoid any sloppy or lazy turnovers against a pressure defense.
I’m also impressed with Carlwell. He’s not comfortable enough out there to go full speed yet, but he flashed his athleticism for a couple of seconds. He also looks like he has a nice touch with the ball. He’s got a little while ahead of him before he becomes a top-flight player, but he’s a very capable bench player for now and has the potential to turn into something really special.
And let’s face it: if you’d explained how we’d have injuries to Smith and Randle and a suspension to McBride, there’s no question we would have predicted at least one loss by this point in the season. As I recall, a lot of people were predicting five or six losses in the non-conference. So we haven’t done great damage to our resume so far, and now we need to focus on getting our stars healthy and on getting our players to play hard and make good decisions consistently.
November 29th, 2006 at 2:01 pm
Hey, Hey….all the negative posters are back!! I didn’t see ANY of you after the Bradley game, but you guys were just hiding under the baseboards…like cockroaches…waiting for the lights to go out. Well, they went out last night, and you all couldn’t wait to vent your malicious comments. I’m talking to you(in order): Archie, Bill, ckasch, Shark, JD, altgeld88, beyesn, and old coach. Where were you after the wins?!?! You probaably couldn’t get to your computers fast enough to spew your venom. BAM’s first non-conference home loss at Illinois. EVER!!!!!! How many non-conference home losses have all of your “holier-than-thou” coaches from NC, Duke, Kansas, Indiana, UCLA, and OSU had in the same time frame?? I seem to remember Bill Self losing to Oral Roberts AT HOME 2 weeks ago, and Roy Williams losing AT HOME to the Illini last year. You guys are all pathetic…you should be ashamed. I dare you all to post after a win for a change.
#5 - Disgusted Non-Fan…I will gladly address your post after lunch. I have some thoughts for you as well.
The Professor
November 29th, 2006 at 2:03 pm
So DIF wants to know what I think?
I think it’s ridiculous and borderline masochistic to judge my players, my team, my coach, my season and the program in general on the basis of a game in which our team shoots 35% from the field, including 25% from 3 pt range, is missing a key player to injury and has another key player play 15 minutes because he isn’t healthy enough to go all-out.
There’s no doubt we didn’t play well, but it’s just plain stupid to cry that the sky is falling on our program on the basis of one game. I swear, if some of you guys had your way, we’d play 30 game season with 30 head coaches and 30 athletic directors. Try looking at the big picture instead of making a judgment based on a single game.
November 29th, 2006 at 2:16 pm
#33-Reality Check…How come you’re chewing yesterday’s breakfast?? I posted last week on the Jon Sheyer situation…I won’t bore the rest of the posters by pulling it from the archives, but…JON SHEYER WAS NEVER GOING TO COME TO ILLINOIS IF HE GOT THE SCHOLARSHIP OFFER FROM DUKE. No matter if BAM was the coach, Self, Roy Williams, John Wooden, or Adolph Rupp himself. Let it go. The same goes for Eric Gordon. Once Sampson got his hooks in him….it was over. The only reason he chose us initially was because the other loser was still coaching Indiana…once he was gone…his choice was easy. And for your edification, per today’s Chicago Tribune, the FAMILY of the 14-year old released the information to the papers…not BAM.
Where do you people get so much venom?!?!? Do you all have such pathetic lives that you have to tear others done so that you can feel better about yourselves? That is classic Freud.
November 29th, 2006 at 3:37 pm
Despite all that has been written about shooting percentges and injuries, the Illini still had a chance to pull within one or even tie with one minute to go. With an Illini deflection and subsequent recovery by Rich McBride, all he had to do was dribble up the court and get the ball to Frazier to set up the offense. McBride actaully had a dribble left, but chose to throw the ball across court to Frazier (who should have been running toward McBride to get the ball). Instead, Vasquez was waiting for an opportunity to go up five. On top of that, the next possession McBride forces up another hurried shot which misses and the winning streak was snapped. The Illini couldn’t call time out because they burnt one to start the second half and then two more on Maryland’s press. I really did expect a little more patience and leadership from McBride in those situations.
Anyway, I’m not giving up and I know Webber will coach these guys up. This was my first game seeing this edition of the Illini and I have to tell you after four years of Dee and Augie, I miss what they brought to the team. I just don’t see any leaders out there. Maybe they’ll shock us all and upset Arizona.
November 29th, 2006 at 3:56 pm
Jimmy Dee, I am with you. Call me a homer too but lets just see how they come out against Arizona and where we are with a healthy Randall and Smith. One loss against a really good ACC team does not exactly end the season for us. One thing Weber and staff are good at is making adjustments. I think they will make the necessary adjustments and get back on track. All this talk about talent is nonsense. We have lots of talent. It just didnt show up last night, or at least not consistently. They made a really nice comeback after being down by 14.
You gotta like what Trent Meacham has brought to this team. Last night he had some really nice backside-help steals and again I say, he has a stabilizing effect on the game when he is in there.
November 29th, 2006 at 4:09 pm
Wow. From reading some of these comments we must have lost by 30 points. Fellows (assuming most of you are guys)we lost by just 6 points. We were leading by 5 halfway through the second half. Had McBride not played we probably would have won. Assuming a healthy Smith and Randle this could have been an easy victory. The guard play had much to be disired..but Chester is still learning, Brock and Meacham are playing for the first time. Pruitt, Carter and Carwell all played well. Let’s get more game experience and healthy players then if we stink it up (and losing by 6 points to a ranked team we should have beaten is not stinking it up)then we can hyperventilate and panic.
November 29th, 2006 at 4:17 pm
Well, I am a huge Illini fan and even though we only lost our first game last night, we will manage to lose a lot of games this year. I think it was best said earlier on in this blog that it will take the Illini two to three years to get back to great basketball. Our recruting just isn’t all that good when you compare our basketball program to others around the country. It was easy for Bruce’s success over the past couple years because he didn’t recruit those players, Bill Self did! Now, Illini fans are left wondering if Bruce can get it done over the next couple of years?
November 29th, 2006 at 4:20 pm
Quote: “Maryland actually won a championship game, and 2 years later, missed the NCAA Tournament, for 2 years in a row”
Valid point BUT… in the two classes that followed their NC in 2002, Maryland landed 7 recruits ALL were 4*, they simply did not play as expected, which is something happened sometimes with top-100 kids…
When you recruit like a mid-major, you play like a mid-major…
I said on another forum that to recruit at high level you need to be one of two things:
1) Spineless sleaze (willing beg and/or dish out $ to recruits and their inner circles.. OR
2) A heck of salesman
Weber is clearly not the first type (nor do I want him to be), but he is clearly a bad salesman… any person that cannot sell the Illini success the last 10 years or so has no business recruiting at a top-tier program…
What Weber needs at this point:
1) A defining win (an upset… defeating OSU would be it, remember, OSU benefited more from upsetting us in 2005 than we did from making our NC run — D. Cook committed then and that opened the gates.
2) Solid 2008 class, anything less than top-20 class would seal the deal…
if these did not happen, better send him packing before he turns our BB into the Turner’s FB program
PS. I’m not gonna gloat when we beat the Bradley’s and Miami (OH) teams of college BB, we’re expected to do that
November 29th, 2006 at 4:28 pm
Whoa all ye naysayers! I agree with those bashing McBride. I told my son that I feel he is probably one of the most disappointing recruits we have ever had and feel that Weber should lay into him. I don’t know whether it is lack of conditioning or attitude or a combo, but he needs clearly to step it up or I would start Smith when he regains his strength.
Right now this is a team out of sync. They have a young point guard who is currently hobbled by an ankle injury and reportedly wouldn’t have played had it not been Maryland. McBride who missed the first four games is definitely out of rhythm. Carter is starting for the first time in his career and logging more minutes than ever before. Pruitt who doesn’t have Augie to back him up. Then add to the mix Brock who is now called upon to produce after barely playing last year. Finally, Smith is fighting through a badly sprained ankle and couldn’t play….he looked like a statue on defense last night. Oh, yes, and arguably our best player is still out in Randle.
What do we expect? I say we need to give this some time and, as Mark said, this is a work in progress and BAM is not a magician. He is trying to patch together a team of young and to a degree injured players and the results are what they are based on those facts.
November 29th, 2006 at 4:33 pm
Dang! Whine, whine, whine about recruiting is all most here are carrying on about. Luckily they’re not coaching Illinois or the current team wouldn’t play for them and they would be released immediately with their butts on the street.
This team is what it is. It does need to find it’s own identity. I firmly believe it needs to play more towards strength than speed but they have to figure that out.
Also this team is not whole. Some even admit that here but aren’t seeing the whole picture. We’ve got Randle and Smith basically out not to mention though Semrau has been battling the flu. That’s 3 that obviously can’t help much in a game so that leaves what there is. So far I think many understand that so look a little farther…what about practice? That’s also 3 talented players not able to practice at the level they need to be if they can practice at all. You see it’s a lot worse missing those 3 than just not being in the game and it impacts the play of those that we do have in the game and in practice.
Now don’t get me wrong. Maryland is very good and I believe is underrated. We lost to a very good team that did not have arguably their best player. I expected the loss and honestly was shocked how good Illinois did play in coming back. They need the team to be whole and healthy to truly judge how good this team can be.
November 29th, 2006 at 4:40 pm
Algonquin Bill:
Professor? Where? Hardscrabble Community College?
Geez, you offer low-hanging fruit.
Here’s the comprehensive list of Weber’s challenging non-conference home games at Illinois:
2003 - Memphis (and it’s a stretch to call that one challenging)
2004 - Wake (all props to him and the boys on that one)
2005 - G’town (that’s a stretch, too, given their state at the time.)
2006 - Maryland (barely a Top 20 team)
So, exactly one per season for four seasons. Someone had a quote after last night’s game:
“I told them they shouldn’t lose at home. I don’t care who’s here or not, if you play smart, you play tough and you guard . . . We gave up 72 percent in the second half. We’ve been pretty good. I understand the competition is different, but that shouldn’t happen at home.”
Oh, yeah. That was Bruce Weber in the Trib.
Our non-con home winning streak was somewhat of a non-accomplishment under Weber. Our BT home record… well, I was impressed by that one while it lasted.
I am not ashamed to express my disgust with last night’s performance. It’s been said many times here…. there’s a difference between losing early games to top teams starting fives such as NC, Fla and Kansas have and losing to MD with what we put on the court last night. Maybe Jamar and Randle will make a huge difference. I certainly pray that they will. But I doubt they will light a fire under us such that we will come out of the gates with the proper early-game intensity.
I’d feel a bit more sanguine if we smoked last night and lost. We didn’t; we sucked. As Weber said afterwards, we handed the game to them on our own floor. That’s inexcusable.
Why didn’t I post after the squeakers against MiamiOH and Bradley? Because I couldn’t stifle my yawns in anticipation of finally playing a real team. I assure you that should we play in sublime fashion and beat #16 AZ in Phoenix I will promptly re-appear with praise. Forgive me if I fail to admire a turd.
Sorry; high standards, professor. Just like Weber apparently has. Care to join us? Where’d you earn your doctorate, BTW?
November 29th, 2006 at 4:43 pm
I’m sick of hearing about Illinois’ lack of recruiting success — you could fill out an all-star team from every school in the country of players who didn’t go to that school.
I disagree that Illinois doesn’t have enough talent — it’s just young, inexperienced talent that laid an egg in the final five minutes last night, and we didn’t have our best two players!
Warren Carter wasn’t ever on the floor his first three years on campus and certainly didn’t play tons of minutes down the stretch in games last year. Meacham is new and young, Brock didn’t see the floor his first two years and Frazier needs to settle into a more comfortable role where he’s not trying to do too much. He, like Carter, played last year, but never in crunch time.
I’m just as ticked that we lost as anyone, and just like Coach Weber said, that shouldn’t EVER happen. I have faith in Coach Weber that this work in progress will turn into a pretty good team by the end of the year.
And I also feel good about the fact that this is probably the “worst” team we’ll have for several years. I’d like to make the Final Four and win the Big Ten every year, too, but that’s not realistic and winning 20 games and making the tournament with a “bad” team isn’t all that horrible. And as bad as McBride has been, I wouldn’t be surprised to see him make some big shots at some point this year.
Everyone take a deep breath.
November 29th, 2006 at 4:48 pm
Disgusted Illini Fan - #6 Let’s start with what I agree with you on. “Given the fact that nearly all of us agree that Mr. Weber is fairly a good coach….” “…Mr. Weber is such a Superman of a coach…” “…he can actually take a bunch of three stars (or lower) players and sustain an excellent program and/or win a national championship…”
D I F, from the time of your posting, I can infer you were either sleep deprived or drunk. Talk about a “mish-mash” (your words.) My 3rd grader turns in papers with less typos…and better spelling. But I digress.
If you had simply pointed out an obvious flaw in the Illini’s game, perhaps I could have found common ground with you. But your post is one ad hominem (sorry, big word) attack after another. Did the Illini play bad defense in the 2nd half? Yes. Did they throw up bads shots all game, particularly the guards? Yes. Are 15 turnovers acceptable? No. Did they snatch defeat from the hands of victory? Yes. Will the world end tomorrow? Not sure (see Luke 12:40). But if it doesn’t, the sun will rise, and the Illini will go back to practice and work on said deficiencies.
What is AMAZING is that as poorly as we obviously played last night….if our guards shoot 8 of 30 (instead of 5 of 30), Maryland could have shot 72% in the 2nd half and WE win the game. Or, looking at it another way, if we “hold” Maryland to 10 of 18 in the 2nd half (55%), even with our lousy shooting, we still win. Even with all the turnovers, poor shots, and standing around, against ESPN’s 19th ranked team, and spotting them a 20 - 6 1st half lead, we almost won. Bad judgment by R M or we are shooting a potential game-tying 3 in the last minute! I won’t play the Brian Randle card, since his injury cancels out the injury to Maryland’s forward.
Yet you want to put a tombstone over the Assembly Hall and forego the rest of the season!!! “Start counting the Ls pile-up and/or dearly held records end because the good ole days are over.” Are you serious??
“With the rapid fall of our basketball…” Rapid fall?!?! “…do you now agree that our Baskteball program is rapidly declining?…” At 8 - 1!?!? My word D-I-F, it’s a good thing you weren’t commanding at the Battle of the Bulge, or we would have surrendered in the first day when things looked bleak.
I see it only took you one paragraph to get to Ron Guenther and make him responsible for the loss. (”…the complete destruction of the IL sports…”) You know, it’s not to late to tie Ron to the JFK assasination. Why don’t you make him responsible for world hunger and the North Korean crises while you’re at it? Again, I ask you, did he do something to you as a child?
I can’t speak for Brandon or RPIC Editor Boy. But as for this “know-it-all” I will neither back down nor tone down my support of Coach Weber and A D Guenther. My comments speak for themselves. I consider myself not an apologist, but an optimist who doesn’t cut and run at the first sign of trouble. I may be loyal to a fault, but then again, so are my friends…….
November 29th, 2006 at 4:53 pm
By the way, one thing no one has mentioned is that Chester was playing hurt. They say he wouldn’t have played had it not been his homestate team. His decision-making still certainly left something to be desired, but I guess we shouldn’t be surprised that someone with a bad ankle doesn’t play great defense and doesn’t drive to the basket well. So we’ll give him a pass on some bad aspects of his game, although his sense of when to speed up and when to slow down will need plenty more work.
November 29th, 2006 at 4:55 pm
Just finished catching up with things and have a few observations to make:
~ ~ ~
“You gentlemen are an embarassment to hoops knowledge and Google ability!!!”
Comment by Kentucky Mike — 11/26/2006 @ 12:43 pm
~ ~ ~
That comment was posted by the same “gentleman” who less than two weeks ago posted the question of how many “medical redshirts” a player is allowed to take. Turns out there’s no such thing as a “medical redshirt” and it took me and Google less than ten seconds to come with an answer to that “gentleman’s” question.
Talk about being “an embarassment to hoops knowledge and Google ability.”
~ ~ ~
And then there was this:
~ ~ ~
“Plus Weber is looking to offer a 5′-9″ guard from Decatur? Being from Decatur I can tell you nothing in that sentence spells success!!!!”
Comment by Kentucky Mike — 11/26/2006 @ 12:43 pm
(for the record, the “guard from Decatur” has been to a few Illini games, but not a single peep out of Weber about an offer, which doesn’t matter anyway because the kid wouldn’t qualify academically… you can’t take that to the bank)
~ ~ ~
Which by itself doesn’t mean as much as it does when you consider this:
~ ~ ~
“I went to school outside the Decatur school district. We never lost to Decatur ever. Unless you count the 100 yard dash, drive by shootings and car washes!”
Comment by Kentucky Mike — 11/27/2006 @ 8:31 pm
~ ~ ~
Gee Mike, tell us all how you really feel about the town that Mark Tupper, Tim Cain, myself and countless other blog regulars call our home.
Do the friends and family you left behind know of your intense hatred for their home? Or have they long since banished you from their lives?
Sure would explain your bitterness.
Anyway, please know that my envy for your blissful life in the Garden of Eden that is Dallas knows no bounds.
Sheesh KY Mike, you hate Decatur, think Weber is the “2nd coming of Lou,” and can’t bring yourself to say a SINGLE positive thing about Illini athletics.
So what do you do?
Hang out in a Decatur-based blog devoted to Illini athletics, bashing Decatur and Illini athletics.
How pitiful.
You’re a Kentucky alum that lives in Dallas, so it’s not like you haven’t had ample opportunity to find yourself a new team to denigrate.
But before you go, please give Bruce Weber a few tips on who YOU’D be recruiting.
Advice like that coming from an “expert” like you would surely be welcome.
November 29th, 2006 at 6:09 pm
I hear a lot about Randle being our savior, but isn’t he the same Randle who shot some of the worst brick shots last year? Randle, isn’t he the one who was in foul trouble every game? McBride when has he been anything but a slow, lazy, me me me streak shooter. How many free throws did he make last year, by all his drives to the basket. WAsn’t Frazier the same kid who couldn’t hit a basket from anywhere last year. Why are we expecting anymore from these players this year? Carter he was more off than on last year, he does show more promise this year, but he hasn’t been that consistent, either. The biggest improvment has come from shaun Pruitt and he has a couple of weak games. Let’s just enjoy what we got and get off expecting this team to be great, lets be happy with winning some games, until the maturity of these young men gets here.
November 29th, 2006 at 6:19 pm
Brandon ~ Well said…
I have a question for the “realists” out there. If the sky is falling what do you propose we do about it? Do you think we should fire Bruce, Guenther or maybe we should turn our back on ethics and start paying players. Would a new stadium help? What is the solution to your constant moan that Illinois basketball sucks?
November 29th, 2006 at 6:52 pm
The loss happened because everybody went cold shooting. We took something like 20 more shots than MD because we played very hard. I would bet 10-1 odds that we won’t lose another game if we earn 20 more shots than the opposition. We wouldn’t even have had to come close to matching MDS % to win, just 3 more shots.
Thank you for the Maryland example about expectation for recruiting. MD put all their guys into the NBA but it didn’t automatically start a line of hamburger all Americans (sorry I shamelessly ripped this off, but it a great line). Everybody has their own reasons for choosing a school and many are quite simply out of Weber’s hands.
I recently stopped laughing at KY Mike’s post a week ago about how he’s a better fan because he demands excellence (read perfection). While I don’t agree with this, it is great to see weber take no solace in a close loss. Just goes to show you he will not give up in coaching or recruiting. No amount of “support” from chicken littles on here is going to make him work any harder. And that, is why I have complete trust in him.
November 29th, 2006 at 7:09 pm
Oh, I forgot, brilliant post by anonymous: do not risk reinjuring smith, or randle for that matter! Realistically no matter how many games we win this year, we will win more next year. Rushing those kids back is too short sighted.
Add me to the list of people who are disappointed in RMc. He’s supposedly a sharp shooter, but check his stats. He’s not really good at that. He should be watching Corey Bradford game tape. This is you rich. Everybody knows you like to jack up threes. Use this to fake and get an easier shot, draw a foul, or make a pass. You’d raise your shooting % by 10% at least. You’re deadly in mid range and at the FT line. You don’t know what that is? I can’t believe Brian cook didn’t introduce you. You could probably earn a starting spot. It’s that easy. Recognize before it’s too late!
November 29th, 2006 at 8:03 pm
altgeld88 - #45. Good post…you are the only one I named that had the stones to write back. I actually enjoyed your comments…I always enjoy reasoned and logical debate. You make some good points, though we are probably destined to disagree on the non-conference winning streak. Here is my logical…not emotional or ad hominem argument: The achievement of the streak was not the competition…it was the streak itself. Whether a hitting streak in baseball, a consecutive touchdown streak in football, or the Illini winning streak, the difficulty lies NOT in the competition, but in achieving this day-after-day-after day…REGARDLESS of the competition. Were it not so, why wouldn’t all of the teams I mentioned…the “premier teams” currently have long-home non-conference winning streaks? ALL major schools play a fair amount of patsies at home…that’s how the system works. You know that. Name one major school that doesn’t have 8 -10 “gimmes” on their home non-conference schedule. 51 games is a long-time…8 years…at any time you can have a bad shooting night (like last night), play bad defense (like last night), or have injuries (like last night).
Again, I agree that we played badly last night, and we snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. But unlike many other posters, I am not ready to flush the season down the toilet, dismiss BAM as the next coming of Ron Turner, or hang Ron Guenther in effigy. It was a loss…nothing more and nothing less. Illinois has exactly as many losses as Duke and Kansas. And I will bet anyone on this blog that Maryland can beat the teams that beat Kansas and Duke. How’s that for “low-hanging fruit”?
As for my Professor status, that was a title hung on me by Disgusted Illini Fan…maybe because I constantly defeat him in our ongoing battles of wit. Who knows? In reality, I’m just another Illini alum who bleeds orange and blue…and who is an optimist through and through.
November 29th, 2006 at 8:17 pm
Just some facts:
Positives: I gotta have more Cowbell!!! I mean Carlwell! Okay so four of the eight were put backs. But he either has a nose for the ball or he’s just to damn big to get around. Either way I say that’s a plus.
2. We do have a low post game.
3. Warren Carter. Bart I will accept your apology about him. Since nobody on the team plays defense we might as well have someone who scores!
Negatives:
1. Guard play!
2. A three guard offense that turned it over against the lightest press I’ve ever seen. Expect more of that from our opponents!
3. Chester Farzier - I’m giving him a small injury break. However, a p.guard who can’t dribble, drive, shoot and or pass does not raise my spirits.
Coaching:
1. Marylands best big man is out so we go down low in the SECOND HALF!!!!
2. Carter limps all the way down the floor and nobody notices?
3. A time out before the second half starts? I mean the guys were leaving the huddle! Did he forget something in the tunnel?
Talent: The high scorer (Young) for Maryland is also the highest rated recruit for both teams (Scout #20). But I suppose that is just coincidence. Our “young” team got schooled by a Venezualen freshman!
Not the end of the world. Not really unexpected! I think we are going to see a whole year, hell maybe two of molasses mixed with rust basketball! Biggest concern is how well many of the overmatched Big Ten teams really fought hard. Are only chances for sweeps are Iowa and Minn.
Not one mention of me missing the final score by a point?
Editor Boy - Debates yes. Cherry picking, um not interested! Thanks though!
November 29th, 2006 at 8:20 pm
Brnadon (#51) - I am indeed a “realist.” That would make you and your ilk fantasists, I suppose.
We are not moaning constantly that Illinois b-ball sucks. We are simply concerned that the lack of a single top-tier recruit in the four recruiting classes that Coach Weber has now assembled, despite an absolutely insane won-loss record and a season that ended approximately 30 seconds short of the national title, will send us back to a place with which those of us who suffered through the long not-quite-over-the-hump Lou Henson era are all too familiar. And, I’ll add on my own behalf, an era that those of us now nearly a generation removed from the blissful beauty of the Champaign-Urbana campus never want to experience again.
I am quite happy to see that Weber tore a hole in the boys after last night’s performance. That’s something I never heard from Lou. It lets me know that he wants it badly. And I really hope that he has learned from the Gordon/Rose/Scheyer debacles that he must change dramatically his recruiting style and sales intensity. Or maybe he is beginning to panic.
On the other hand, I worry that a guy who waited so long before exercising any intiative in going after a head coaching position and was content for many, many years to be an assistant simply isn’t the proper material to take us where we all agree that Illinois basketball deserves to reside: at the top.
I look at the Billy Donovans, Bob Knights, Lute Olsons (and even Bill Selfs) of the world and there certainly seems a link between burning ambition as a young man to coach at the highest level and winning big. A necessary, if not sufficient, condition for championship-caliber performance.
Finally, as an aside, I sent Ron Zook an e-mail after the Ohio State game just to say that I really felt for him during the serial humiliation he endured in 2005 and was heartened for him and for all of us long-suffering fans to see that we finally seemed to be turning a corner (boy did I regret sending that note after the Purdue and NW games!)
Anyway, much to my surprise, he sent me a brief and thoughtful reply the next day that, from a detail he included, I surmise he wrote himself and didn’t delegate to an assistant. Very impressive.
He said in his note “This is a great university and deserves a great football program.” I thought that was a bit depressing. Of course it’s a great university. That’s self-evident.
Can you imagine anyone saying of Michigan, UCLA, Wisconsin, UNC, Duke, USC, etc… “This is a great university…” Of course not. It’s like saying the sky is blue. Reminded me of Woody Hayes’ great gaffe in the ’60s when OSU was a perennial NC contender… “Ohio State is a university of which the football team can be very proud…”
I think it has been an eye-opener to Coach Zook that indeed we do have a world-class university. This gets to our image problem around the country and within Illinois. In-state kids burn to play football at OSU, Michigan and Penn State. They pine to play hoops at Wisconsin. Scheyer longed to play for Duke and wouldn’t have even considered us. The best Illinois basketball and football talent generally feel little affinity for the U of I.
So yeah… I’m a realist. Because we have real, enduring and serious obstacles to becoming a consistent national basketball contender. And our performance so far v. cupcakes and last night’s pathetic showing isn’t giving me a warm abdominal feeling. Which is why I keep a bottle of fine single-malt handy when I watch us play.
November 29th, 2006 at 8:32 pm
You know Coach Parcells has 2 great sayings he uses here in Big D. (You know the guy who has 2 Super Bowls rings so I guess you can call him an expert. Since it certainly would be false if I said it)
1. Don’t tell me about the pain. Show me the baby!
2. You are what you are. If your 5-11 your a 5-11 team. If you were better you wouldn’t lose close games!
Translation: 1. Just do what it takes to get it done.
2. Good teams don’t screw themselves!
Jake - Are we to give Weber credit for not quitting? He gets paid plenty not to quit.
As for Corey Bradford tape. That guy never learned how to drive either. Watch D. Wade tape, Kobe tape, McGrady tape. There isn’t one Illinois guard ever, who was a great driver of the basketball! In fact the three drives we did have to the basket ended up in points. If there is a clearer sign to Weber I can’t possibly think of what it could be!
November 29th, 2006 at 9:45 pm
Brandon and Algonquin Bill…it is not this one game that we are talikng about, but the downward trend that our basketball program is on…almost free-falling.
Step back and look at the big picture, fellows…by all accounts, our team this year is worse than last year’s team which, in turn, was worse than the previous year (the 2004 NCAA championship Runner-Up team with all the key players Mr. Self’s recruits, but coached by Mr. weber, which, incidentally, was instrumental in gaining my respect for Mr. weber as I don’t think Mr. self would have gone that far with that team). Now, let’s look at what we have in the recruiting pipeline as top recruit(s)/blue chip(s) coming in the next few years…none…zero! so, the decline will continue unabated no matter how hard or how well Mr. weber will coach them…they’ll just win more games than they’ll lose, but no sustained excellence and definitely no national championship. Do you get the picture? It is not just this one game.
This is exactly what has happened to all our sports since Mr. Guenther became the AD at IL, i.e., systematic decline with a few good years here and ther (our football in 2001, our basketball in 2004 so on and so forth), but absolutely no sustained excellence and/or national championship. Our basketball just happens to be the latest casulty.
Now if I and you and others who are simple fans happen to know these sustained failures under Mr. guenther, don’t you think the top recruits and their parents who have much more at stake and thoroughly research these matters would know the same things as well? and that’s why we can’t get top recruits at any of our sports in IL. they know IL, under Mr. guenther, is not serious about its sports as they all ahve failed. All IL sports have been and will continue to be in a rot under Mr. Guenther and he’ll do his alma matre a big favor if he leaves before he is fired.
Now, that’s the chronological analysis of those of us who truly wish to turn all our horrible sport programs (all of them stink) around…what say you?
But please don’t go back to waving the loyalty flag and good fans and bad fans and all that stuff. We know and accept the fact that you are great fans…and we respect that..but so are we.
November 29th, 2006 at 10:34 pm
First time to watch Illinois team this year on TV. Just moved down to Florida. I liked Trent Meacham. From what I could see he’s the only true point guard on the squad. When he was at the point, the offense got into a rhythm. And off the ball, he actually moved in the motion offense. Team looked pretty fragmented and not aggressively going to the hole most of the game. But it’s early. Go Illini !
November 29th, 2006 at 11:35 pm
I was not particularly concerend withy the talent level on the team until I watched Ohio State and North Carolina this evening. CRK
November 29th, 2006 at 11:46 pm
Editor Boy - You have long since become the running joke on this blog.
While your digging through the archives, why don’t you pull up the massive amounts of garbage you spewed along the lines of “Bruce is great…he will get Gordon and probably Rose…He will show you all he really can recruit..,blah-blah-blah”
Why am I not surprised you leave these things out?? HMMMMM ?????
November 29th, 2006 at 11:51 pm
One more thing, KY Mike (and DisgusTING, etc.):
The Maryland game truly was the first real test of the season, and our boys failed.
Miserably.
Weber was right - there’s no excuse for losing on your own hardwood and it doesn’t matter who you’re playing.
McBride?
Probably Maryland’s best player Tuesday night.
Team leader?
Haven’t spotted one yet.
Sweet Sixteen?
Probably not.
But am I still happy to be an Illini fan?
As much as it pains me to make the same claim as Kentucky Mike, DisgusTING Illini “Fan,” X-McDaniels, Winstoned Smith, et al…
Yes, I’m still happy to be an Illini fan.
And that’s exactly what sets me and the rest of the so-called “homers” apart from all you members of the Lemon Krush.
Being Illini fans makes you guys absolutely MISERABLE.
But look on the bright side, all you Lemon Krushers: self-immolation is considered by some cultures to be the ultimate way to bitch about something you don’t like, which in turn cleanses and elevates the soul to a higher plane of enlightenment.
And if that’s what it takes to make you feel more enlightened than the rest of us, then you surely must be high on something.
November 30th, 2006 at 12:03 am
Archie, Bill, etc.. WELCOME TO THE FOLD!!!
You have now joined the club of those human beings who are freakin realistic. You see what many of us see. An incredibly flawed team, with no go to scorer and no real potential of going any further than Rd. 2 of the tourney. And the future of the program doesn’t look much better.
You will be ridiculed and insulted as a non-fan, jerk, or whatever. Don’t waiver as the proof keeps playing out before our eyes(also known as the 11/27 blog). There will be many homers and obstacles in your way spouting or thinking B.S. like “Best available player is a good thing?? So let me get this straight, if Indy or others take every good player we have in the state, and Weber recruits the rest that is a victory??? Why yes X it is!! Because now we have the best players AVAILALBE.
Oh well, I digress. Just remember to keep on keeping on as the truth will always set you free.
**X-wisdom (a new feature) **- Someone on this blog explain to me how BAM can be considered such a great coach when we have a 3 guard lineup and none of them can break a press let a lone get the ball inbounds?? Hell, our guys plain freaked out and looked like they had never seen pressure EVER!!!
I wouldn’t call that great preparation or coaching.
November 30th, 2006 at 1:10 am
Calvin Brock is easily the best athlete on the floor and is quickly establishing himself as the second coming of Luther Head. Frazier is what he is… a tireless worker whose athletic ability translated into a three-star rating and a collection of snubs from big-time programs. Forget ‘07, this team is destined for disappointment for spoiled Illini fans and all eyes need to be focused on the incoming ‘08 class and the hopefull appearance of a stud shooting guard. Until then, we enjoy Smith’s jumper, Brock’s ascension, and the anticipated appearance of Demetri McCamey, who will hopefully relegate Chet Frazier to a bench and energy role.
November 30th, 2006 at 1:38 am
Great follow-up article Tupper:
http://www.herald-review.com/articles/2006/11/30/sports/mark_tupper/1019513.txt
Somebody asked me what I thought…all I hear now is crickets chirping…
November 30th, 2006 at 7:32 am
Mark, great column this morning and thanks for addressing the naysayers’ woes - both real and imagined.
I’m often amazed at the state of negativity of many bloggers and wonder if this is how they attack normal life.
Ed McMahon: “Congratulations! You just won a million dollars!”
Negative Blog-Man: “Yeah, but I’ll lose half to taxes. And my Aunt Susie will want a loan, which she won’t pay back. And my kid will want a new car, since he wrecked his last one…..”
Considering the (a) lack of experience by this team, (b) the top defender out with injury, and (c) two starting guards hampered by injuries, I was happy with the effort vs. Maryland. With both teams at full strength, Illnois wins that game.
Do you Norman Negatives watch any other college basketball? Or just stand outside, waiting for the falling sky to prove your rants correct? I thought Florida’s performance (remember - they’re the defending champs with everyone back this year) vs. Kansas was just as sloppy and thus more disappointing. And while I’m on the Gators, their current schedule strength - a paltry #263. By comparison, Illinois’ stands at #107. While both numbers will change, enough on the scheduling crap!
Weber took a squad of 3-star and 4-star players to the title game before (check your stats - only Dee Brown was a 5-star guy) and he’s done nothing to show that he can’t do it again.
This group reminds me of Weber’s first Illini squad, which started 12-5 (gasp! the horror!) including a national spanking by Providence and a loss to Purdue before turning things around.
And while I’m on the “Get Off Weber’s Ass” soapbox….you screamed for him to become a more aggressive recruiter after the Gordon fiasco. He does, goes out and beats the nation to a freshman who’s already one of the top 5 in the state…and all you can say is “Richmond will end up decommitting and go elsewhere”. I understand not wanting to get burned again, but is there any pleasing you? Indiana needed six months of brainwashing and had to hire TWO family friends to steal Gordon away. Doesn’t exactly sound like EJ was pining away for the Hoosiers if all of that was necessary (and it was)!
I hated for the Illini to lose this game because it was their first vs. a ranked foe and first on national TV, but it was a good punch in the mouth. Many lessons should be learned from this and Weber will hammer them home. I’m not saying they’ll win Saturday, but they’ve received a wake-up call and better to get one now than in early March.
November 30th, 2006 at 9:28 am
Another great read for the doomers…
http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/story.asp?id=254935
November 30th, 2006 at 9:49 am
Everyone has covered things pretty well, so I won’t say them again. I will say that since there seems to be a rash of 1st time negative posters after this loss to Md., I would like to hear from more positive Illini fans that have never posted to balance this out somewhat. I know that the negs have a right to express their opinion, but no amount of ranting on this board will fix what you all perceive to be wrong with the Illini b-ball program. This must be a forum for you to relieve stress by venting your rage about your “favorite” basketball team.
I don’t see how you could be dissatisfied with BW’s overall record at Illinois of 96-17(.849). I think his record in NCAA games while at Il. is 7-3. It pretty much boils down to most of you being unhappy with BW’s recruiting. But you can’t really make a case about that until this year plays out, you can only speculate as to what you think will happen with this year’s team of, according to many of you, unathletic players. I see flaws too, but I’m willing to trust the Illini coaching staff to correct them & hope the team has a good year. How about giving this team a chance to get everyone healthy & see what they can do? Go Illini!
November 30th, 2006 at 9:50 am
DIF, Ky Mike and others: Maryland won the NCAA Tournament in 2002. That was the recipe for future success and greatness, especially in recruiting, yes?
In 2003, they loss in the Sweet 16.
In 04, they lost in the 2nd round.
In 05, they missed the tournament and went to the NIT.
In 06, I’m betting they’ll be back in the NCAA tournament.
Now, look at IL… In 04, tournament finals, in 05, 2nd Round. Does that mean in 06, we’ll miss the tournament? It’s obviously too soon to say.
The point is, top tier programs are cyclical in their success. The exceptions are the elite of the elite, UCAL, Duke, UNC, and many years ago, IN and KY.
We know we’re on the downward trend, perhaps at the bottom heading up, perhaps not for another year. We just don’t know where on the curve we are. But history suggests if we’re not on the upswing today, we’ll be there next year.
Moving Illinois from a mediocre Div 1 team in the 80/90s to top tier team took over a decade. Moving us to the elite of the elite will take longer. Can Weber get us there? I know many of you say no. Until we can find out, ya’ll just get off his stressed back and keep blaming Guenther.
November 30th, 2006 at 9:55 am
altgeld88 is my new hero.
Way to say it brother!!!
November 30th, 2006 at 10:05 am
#56-altgeld 88: “On the other hand, I worry that a guy who waited so long before exercising any intiative in going after a head coaching position and was content for many, many years to be an assistant simply isn’t the proper material to take us where we all agree that Illinois basketball deserves to reside: at the top.”
My understanding is that SIU was not the first position Coach Weber tried for, but the first he was hired for. Coach is obviously not a slick salesman, which in my opinion is not a bad thing, and that may have something to do with having to wait a while for that first opportunity. Tell me you haven’t noticed in the world that the best candidate is not always the one who gets hired. For every Bruce Weber or Bo Ryan (head coach at a Div. III school for many years) who take forever to get really noticed, there are the Quin Snyder, Tommy Amaker and Buzz Peterson’s of the world who get high profile positions well before they’re ready.
The bottom line is that paying your dues is not necessarily a bad thing. While demonstrating loyalty to those you work for, you can hone your craft and search for the right opportunity to be the best coach you can be.
November 30th, 2006 at 10:28 am
In reference to an earlier post, Illinois has offered to Lewis Jackson, as has Iowa and Indiana. Georgia Tech is also now showing him love.
November 30th, 2006 at 10:35 am
“3. Warren Carter. Bart I will accept your apology about him.”
All the posts are there for you to go back and find where I addressed Warren Carter at all. It’s not there. You enjoy jabbing at so many people here you cant even remember who “owes” you an apology and for what.
Please true fans that come here to discuss actual things about the Illini in a civilized manner, when you address Ky Mike directly, you are only feeding the frenzy.
Here is an experiment. No one respond to any of Ky Mikes (ah heck, lets throw in Xavier McD as well) rantings. Here is my prediction. At first, the number of ALL CAPS and !!!!!!! will go up because no one is paying any attention to them, (which is really what they want) Oh, and the posts will get really long and nasty. Then we will get short posts of “you guys are pathetic” just because we dont respond to their diatribes. Then, maybe they will get bored because they stop getting a rise out of everyone here, and go back to the team that they actually root for (as if one could be good enough), cause it aint this one.
November 30th, 2006 at 10:37 am
For all the “yaysayers” drooling and citing the two article, points well taken… but you’re preaching the wrong crowd…
You should write UNC, Duke, KU, MSU, OSU, and the other 5 (that’s right, FIVE) B10 teams that have better classes in 2007, and BEG all these program to stop out-recruiting us and leaving us in their dust while Mr Weber gets this “engine” running…
Fellas, all pretty analogies aside, the College BB is a cut-throat business, and once you go down (unless it is a true “rebuilding” year, which we ARE NOT) the vultures are going to press you down…
BTW, I’m not saying it is completely hopeful, but please do not kid yourself into thinking the fix is around the corner…
If Weber couldn’t sell the program when it was riding so high the last 5-10 years, how is he gonna be able to sell with his “bad recruiter” reputation cemented out there….
we may feel sympathy for the man, but in reality his sale is that much tougher now, and he simply doesn’t have salesmanship to overcome it…
I won’t call for Weber head, yet, but I’m not gonna keep drinking the Kool-aid and convince myself that salvation is around — what you see is what you’re going to get with Weber
Archie
November 30th, 2006 at 10:54 am
First time posting here. I’m sure to be placed in the “Homer” camp by those who call themselves “realists.” I have no argument concerning the shortcomings of this team which both sides agree on. The difference is how one looks at the glass. For those that still believe it was Weber’s fault for “missing” Scheyer, Gordon, Rose, your hate has blinded you from the facts of each situation. I picture you whiners in a crib whose rattles have fallen out. It doesn’t matter what rattle gets put back in, you always want the one you can’t have and therefore will always be crying about something, regardless of the situation.
But please, immaturity does have its place. Here it’s having unrealistic expectations and believing that only a national championship will satisfy…albeit temporarily.
As for me, sure I get frustrated…just as almost losing to ISU at home or Iowa into OT. Teams underperform at times and overperform at times. The current team has never played together as a unit and is learning how to do so. That means a learning curve. That is realistic. Get over yourselves and enjoy. Life is too short…but being unrealistic you probably think you will live forever.
November 30th, 2006 at 11:21 am
Disgusted Illini Fan…I think you are finally wearing me down. Speaking with you is like speaking with my 12-year old…nothing sinks in…and I finally get weary and walk away, knowing that he will just have to learn for himself…as time will ultimately be the best teacher.
You will not rest until Ron Guenther resigns. That is your perogative. Just do me this one kindness. When Illiniois finishes 3rd or higher in the conference this year, please post and admit your were wrong. It would be the gentlemanly thing to do.
November 30th, 2006 at 11:26 am
Algonquin Bill: I don’t doubt that we want the same thing for our team. I’m not ready to throw up my hands. Look at the big picture, however, anbd one should be seriously concerned.
Anon (#71) - I disagree with you. There seems to exist a fairly clear link between consistent elite team performance and coaches who have hungered to lead from an early age and who have seized the opportunity. I suggested that youth and ambition are necessary, if not sufficient, conditions for beginning to build an outstanding, elite coaching record. Necessary, if not sufficient. Which explains the Quin Snyders of the world. I do hope Weber is an outlier.
I’d like some examples of championship coaches (who attained and sustained elite performance for a decade or so at least) who began head coaching in middle age. Seriously. Perhaps I am just ignorant of prominent cases.
I’m cheering Weber on and hope he is the real deal. But come on, y’all, he has brought no recruit of elite status into the fold. We are not living in the film “Hoosiers.” This is Div-1A hoops, c. 2006. His competition includes Thad Matta, Roy Williams, and troglodyte Caliparis and Huggins’ of the world.
Anyone watch UNC-OSU last night? Goodness, that kinda put our Final Four team in perspective. And it’s only November 30th!
I’m a big fan of reading widely. Big Ten Wonk is a favorite. John Gassaway is a Springfield native and Illinois alum. He’s very smart, articulate and an acute observer. He’s also an unsparing critic and fan of the game of basketball and of the teams that play it. Here’s a quote from this a.m.’s column:
“And in the first half the Buckeyes–sharing the ball, attacking relentlessly, hitting shots–looked so much like Illinois against Wake Forest in November 2004 it was eerie… Only these Buckeyes are younger than that Illini team was, and they were doing it last night on the home court of one of the best five teams in the nation.
Mike Conley, in the first road game of his college career, imposed his offense’s will upon Carolina with the unnervingly calm mastery of a Deron Williams. (And I mean Deron Williams now–Conley’s so far ahead of where Williams was at a comparable point it’s mind-bending.)”
I recommend the archives of his blog for a sound assessment of our current prospects.
Now please convince me that we can do without the services of players such as Gordon, Rose and Rush, settle for what we saw on the court Tuesday evening (or settle for what we will look like even if Jamar and Randle perform to their potential), and make a deep run in the tourney regularly.
Please wake up. I cheer as hard as any other Illini fan. I adore our university and our teams. But I also don’t live in denial. This isn’t a rebuilding year for us. This is the future given our current recruiting. We’ve got serious problems if the Illini aspire to the greatness that has eluded the program forever. And if they don’t aspire to that level, in my opinion, that’s unacceptable.
I’ll say it agian… I hope Weber is a smart guy who learns from his mistakes and adjusts. On the court he appears to most of the time. Off it… well, the jury is out. Hence my concern.
November 30th, 2006 at 11:28 am
Archie, how nice of you to not call for BAM’s head yet. How wonderfully kind and supportive you are to not want to fire a coach who is 96-17 at Illinois. Do you actually think before you type?!?!?!?
November 30th, 2006 at 11:42 am
Brandon- Marks quote “No question recruiting misses have hurt” is the understement of the year!!
He might as well be saying “cutting of one’s oxygen may cause some small distress”!!!
Editor Boy - I like the “Lemon Krush” reference.
However, the fact that I’m an Illini fan does not make me miserable. Un-inspired effort and underachieving in whatever form it may take steams me beyond belief.
Unlike you, I think the Illini should be the premiere program in the country. When Dicky V. falls all over Duke, etc. it makes me want to puke. Also, seeing SIGNS of our program REGRESSING makes me INSANE!!
To all of you out there - It should as well.
IF YOUR A TRUE FAN!!!
November 30th, 2006 at 12:10 pm
Alg Bill — “Archie, how nice of you to not call for BAM’s head yet. How wonderfully kind and supportive you are to not want to fire a coach who is 96-17 at Illinois. Do you actually think before you type”
Bill, I appreciate what Weber is done for us, but it is not like he built the team from scrap.. he took over a team that had just made an E8 and a couple of S16 appearances and barely missed a 3rd S16 (and a team that was loaded with talent) — Don’t make him a magician, he’s a great game coach and he capitalized on the talent that was on the team, but if he cannot get the horses, he’ll take this program down.
My loyalty is first and foremost to the program, coaches come and go, it is us the fans that own the program. It is not Weber’s team to take it down to into the mud, it is OUR program.
And I don’t need to wait to actually see it before I raise my concerns; we did that with the FB program, and look how far down Turner, another brilliant coach, took us down.
Rosco — “For those that still believe it was Weber’s fault for “missing” Scheyer, Gordon, Rose, your hate has blinded you”
It is not the he missed ONLY those, it is that he missed EVERY top kid he’s gone after (let’s not forget Livingston, Collins, Wright, E. Turner, and on and on)… AND to compound the damages, he never seemed to have a sound backup plan.
I’m sure the apologists will look for good/reasonable excuse for every situations, bottom line, he is the HC and puck stops there, when the recruiting is as dissimal is it has been in the last 3-4 years, he is got to take responsibility.
BTW, for those that keep saying we are short two players — Corrections, we are down FOUR players, because we have 2 unused scholarships that should’ve been used in 05 and 06, and asking for a couple low 4* (50-100 rank) in two classes in a program that has been the second winingist in the last 6-7 years is not asking much.
November 30th, 2006 at 12:12 pm
Algonquin Bill:64-106-2 is the record of the football team under the best AD in the Country and self-proclaimed football guy. Go ahead and defend that, Mr. Sunshine!
November 30th, 2006 at 12:19 pm
Illinois will win 25 games this year. They’ll lose to AZ & X, beat MU and sweep the cupcakes for a 12-3 non-conference slate. 10-6 in the Big 11; 2-1 in the tourney and 1-1 in the NCAA. Maryland is a Top 5 team at the end of the year and a good bet for the ACC crown. The Illini are big, strong and (with Randle & Smith healthy–and a post-depression McBride) skilled. What this early stretch gives them, though, is much more depth than they’d otherwide have. Lots-O-Minutes for the Second Five. So when Weber has to go 10 deep against OSU, his 9 & 10 kids won’t freak. Don’t forget what Bruce did with a whole team of red-chip athletes at SIU. This guy can coach. So call Vegas and put $2 on 25 wins. And maybe a dollar on 30 wins.
November 30th, 2006 at 12:32 pm
altgeld88 - I actually agree with most of your post-#77. In answer to your question, you mentioned one “middle aged starting coach” - Roy Williams. Correct? I would think Ray Meyer and John Wooden also fall into that category, yes?
But as much as I agree with you, where I disagree with you and X Man - #79 is: WHAT DO YOU PROPOSE TO DO TO FIX THE SITUATION?!?!??!?!
Anyone can see problems. For 6 years we have listened to liberals bitch and moan about everything wrong in this country…but rarely offering SOLUTIONS. I ask this question in earnest….what, AT THIS POINT IN TIME, do you propose that the University of Illinois men’s basketball program do that it is not currently doing? I do not want emotional or personal attack answers…just solutions. I do not want to hear the usual complaints about where we went wrong in the past. What do you propose we do? I get so frustrated when people point out deficiencies WITHOUT offering an alternative solution going forward. And I trust you won’t say “we need to recruit better”. That is like the radio caller suggesting to BAM that they spend more time practicing free throws.
I sincerely look forward to your thoughts, as well as anyone else that has an enlightened suggestion for either the short term or long term.
November 30th, 2006 at 12:32 pm
Tuesday night’s game exposed the Illini for what they are - sorely lacking in talent, leadership and basketball saavy. Frankly, I’m worried. I don’t see us beating AZ or MO. We will be lucky to be .500 in the B10 and while Editor Boy is worried about the Sweet Sixteen, I’m worried about making the dance, period.
I hope these guys prove me wrong. I am Illini through and through, but I don’t see much with this group. I think Weber is an excellent bench coach, but a recruiter he is not. And you don’t win the race without a stable full of thoroughbreds. If a total yum-yum like Roy Williams can have success anywhere, it only proves that talent will win out over coaching ability. And as good as Weber is, he cannot overcome the lack of talent on this team. Sure, we can beat FAMU and Bradley and the mid majors, but we are NOT going to be competitive in the B10 without more talent. Look at Tom Izzo. The lack of talent in E. Lansing has pretty well negated his acknowledged coaching ability.
I’ll catch the boys on the tube when I can, but I won’t go out of my way to alter my schedule to do so. We need players.
I see Chester Frazier make the same mistakes game in and game out, I see Rich McBride still woefully inconsistent as a shooter, I see Warren Carter’s lack of strength still apparent. In short, I don’t see much improvement from any of these guys. In large part, that comes down to a lack of off-season effort on their part individually, but in a much greater sense to a lack of talent to play at this level. Players are built in the Summer, teams are built in the Winter. But without players at the nation’s elite level, teams are out of luck. Good luck building anything with inferior materials.
November 30th, 2006 at 12:41 pm
I have been reading Tups blog since the beginning but rarely comment. I just want to point out one fact. Randle, McBride and Carter are Self’s recruits, something that has been forgotten over the years. Weber got in late after Self jumped ship to Kansas and signed Pruitt and Brock for the next class. There have been more positive comments on the last two than the first three.
I would like to mourn the death of the Illinois Basketball program since for some of the regular posters after the Maryland game, it’s over! Since it is over, please don’t watch anymore games or post anymore comments until the program returns to your standards.
As for me, I am looking forward to driving from the Los Angeles area to Phoenix to watch Illinois play in person. I don’t expect them to win against Arizona, however I am going to enjoy the game anyway.
November 30th, 2006 at 12:50 pm
#81-Fire Ron Guenther
2 things, my friend:
1) We’re talking basketball today…football has been off the blog since the last missed tackle at Northwestern;
2) You probably want to make sure your own house is in order before you come here and start crowing. I just now checked your blog…you have a TOTAL of 3 responses to your last 12 posts. I have more responses to my last 4 posts here on Mark’s blog in the last 24 hours. Could it be that people aren’t interested in your topic??? Maybe the same reason Air America went bankrupt. Just a thought…….
November 30th, 2006 at 12:51 pm
Oh Mike in PA, get ready to be called everything but a smart person….
Sorry buddy, this space is reserved for those who have known for years that the program is circling the drain. For you to come on here and spout your optimism…..well good luck.;)
(you should know that 25 wins aren’t nearly enough for our elite program) Sorry.
November 30th, 2006 at 1:32 pm
Bart(73) I like your idea of not responding to Ky. Mike. He thrives on it & at times has questioned why noone responded to something he said. I quit exchanging words with him some time ago when he squirmed out of a bet we were trying to make. I hope others can resist his taunts that are meant to incite responses. Go Illini!
November 30th, 2006 at 2:34 pm
One final comment…
I think it is silly, no bun intended, for the “believers” to think that us, realists, are reacting based on one game; com’n, give us some credit…
Every team can have a bad game, UNC lost to UC Santa Clara in 2005 before marching back to beat us in the NC game…
We are not reacting to a single game BUT to a trend…
last year, we will ill prepared after our 2005 run… Only Deron left as non-senior, and yet it was clear that we did not have sufficient talent to step in and keep us going…
Our struggles continued this year (let’s not forget almost losing to Miami-OH and Bradley and being down at half time to one of those cupcakes….
And with the state of our 2007 class I doesn’t seem like it is going to get much better the next couple of years…
So, we did not panic because of one game, we are merely reacting because we are seeing a steady and continuing downturn in our program, and if you guys are not seeing it, you better take off those O&B glasses and take another look
Archie
November 30th, 2006 at 3:13 pm
#77 (altgeld88)- So what are you saying? We should now feel retroactively bad for the significant accomplishments of the 2004-05 team, because the players were too old when they did it? Or maybe it’s that we should not even bother taking the court against this year’s OSU team, because of the greatness they displayed for 30 minutes against the once-beaten Tarheels last night?
November 30th, 2006 at 3:19 pm
As expected after the first loss, we are deluged with self-congratulatory blather and braying from the negative Roundball Evaluators, Tacticians And Recruiting Dissection Strategists and the Demanders Of Perfection and Excellence (s). These titles are as fullsome as their sense of entitlement and powers of 20/20 hindsight, so to save time I just think of them by their initials.
Bart (#70) has the right idea: not responding to the most egregious negavists will deprive them of the attention they crave, and then they’ll just have to resort to ALL CAPS SHOUTING!!– making their successive posts even easier to skip over.
Negative opinions founded on some kind of analysis are not the problem. Tupper and and Willhite’s articles are good examples of this. I appreciate reasoned analysis, even if I don’t personally agree with some of the conclusions drawn. And everyone, even the negativists, are entitled to their opinion–but that’s where the “entitlement” should end. Don’t waste Weber/Zook’s time with your emails, phone calls and free advice, no matter how far-seeing and incredibly valuable it no doubt is. If you absolutely have to communicate with them, be unfailingly supportive and keep it short. Coaches are well aware of all the negatives–that’s what they are working on reducing every day with their players. If you simply must vent on someone, make it Ron Guenther–he is paid to deal with the fans inflated expectations.
I haven’t yet had the opportunity to see a game in person, and I look forward to reading Tom’s (#85) game report from Tucson.
November 30th, 2006 at 3:22 pm
Archie & Marlin….see my previous post -#83. You are both welcome to respond with you enlightening comments.
November 30th, 2006 at 4:10 pm
(with apologies to XAVIER for “digging through the archives…)
THEN:
=======================================
“Finally, As much as I am at fault myself in blaming IL for allowing our treasure blue chip recruits from the state go to other schools, after watching these GM (George Mason) kids, I don’t believe we should put much stock into blue chip recruiting any more in the future.”
Comment by Disgusted Illini Fan — 3/26/2006 @ 10:00 pm
=======================================
NOW:
=======================================
“Now, let’s look at what we have in the recruiting pipeline as top recruit(s)/blue chip(s) coming in the next few years… none… zero! so, the decline will continue unabated no matter how hard or how well Mr. weber will coach them.”
Comment by Disgusted Illini Fan — 11/29/2006 @ 9:45 pm
=======================================
XAVIER MCDANIEL #61: I’m perfectly fine with being the “running joke on this blog.”
(not that I’d believe it was true just because YOU said so…)
But for the record, my keen memory makes it unnecessary for me to go “digging through the archives;” only takes a click of the mouse, old bean.
But I encourage you to go back and dig through the archives, as your own memory of what I’ve ACTUALLY said in the past is obviously quite feeble.
Go get ‘em, X-MAN.
L.S. #72: I stand corrected… I stated above that Weber hasn’t offered Lewis Jackson yet, but he now has offers from Illinois, Iowa, Minnesota, Indiana, DePaul and Georgia Tech (as of 11/27, according to Scout.com).
But I will stand by what I said about Jackson not being on firm academic ground, because he’s not, and as mentioned above, you can take that to the bank.
bart #73: these Lemon Krushers are a lot like politicians: they can’t remember what THEY said yesterday, much less what WE said.
As for not responding to comments posted by members of the Lemon Krush, it’s difficult to ignore true ignorance, my friend.
Archie #74: don’t be such a jughead, and thanks for not calling for Weber’s head yet.
Rosco #75: welcome to the fray!!!
Algonquin Bill #76: speaking with DisgusTING Illini “Fan” is like speaking with your 12-year old?
Hmmm… that makes DisgusTING a couple years older than I thought… but c’mon, Dad, don’t let him wear you down!
Think of all the fun you’ll miss and how rewarding it will be to watch the the glow of comprehension creep across his little face!
altgeld88 #77: I saw Gassaway’s artcile about how eerily similar the Buckeye vs. UNC game was to Wake vs. Illinois in 2004.
And I’ll agree with you: these Buckeye kids are younger than that Illini team was, which maybe explains why Illinois BEAT Wake and the young Buckeyes LOST at UNC, huh?
Like you, we ALL hope Weber is a smart guy who learns from his mistakes and adjusts, and agree with you that he appears to be doing just that on the court. And just like you, we agree that the jury is still out on his ability to recruit.
But that’s where we differ from the pitchfork-toting lynch mob that is the Lemon Krush, who started calling for his head on a stick right after the buzzer ended the 2005 championship game.
XAVIER #79: glad you like my “Lemon Krush” reference, and even happier that you’re not miserable.
And I absolutely LOVE that we agree on the point that Illinois should be at least ONE of the premier programs in the country.
But to paraphrase my old history teacher, Duke wasn’t built in a day, you know.
(P.S. I just about blew chunks the other night when the cameras did that extreme closeup of Dookie Vee with the Cameron Crazies)
Archie #80: didn’t Weber give those 2 scholies to the walk-ons? I’ll check the Illini Board and get back with you on that one…
FRG (aka Winstoned Smith) #81: you really ARE a one-trick pony, aren’t you?
Tell you what: copy and paste this to save yourself time in the future:
FIRE RON GUENTHER TEN TIMES AND THEN POOP ON HIM
Mike in PA #82: you betcha… when Ibekwe gets back in the game Maryland is gonna be TUFF.
Don’t get too cocky with that 25-wins thing though… there are too many cupcakes on the schedule NOT to win 25 (and plenty of blogsters here who won’t let you forget it).
Algonquin #83: HEY! Watchit with those political analogies there, willya?
Don’t want to offend some of the more delicate sensibilities around here, do you?
MARLIN!!! (#84): long time no “see!”
I share your concerns, but if you’ll actually READ (and comprehend) the plain English words I posted above, you’ll realize I am not “worried about the Sweet Sixteen,” as you claim.
What I SAID was I doubt we’ll even make it.
Yeah… 99% chance of a loss at Zona, but you’re wrong about Mizzou: we will be braggin’ (I know, I know… that isn’t a big enough deal to brag about… it’s just what they call it).
Tom #85: nice try, but throwing little things like facts at the Lemon Krush doesn’t do any good.
Bounces off ‘em like bullets off Gene Keady’s hair.
Bill Arter #88: if memory serves, KY Mike didn’t actually squirm out of that bet you tried to make with him.
He CHICKENED out.
As in CHICKEN LITTLE’d out.
Archie #89: no “bun” intended?
(just funnin’ you there, pal… that one had me ROLLing on the floor…)
Anyway, cheer up Arch.
How can Illinois NOT get better in the next couple years?
According to the most vociferous “experts” on this blog, there’s nowhere to go but UP…
(Tupps column this AM)
November 30th, 2006 at 5:25 pm
Okay I’ll tell you how I would deliver a NCAA championship.
1. If a player is first described as “full of potential” or “athletic” or “tremendous upside” do not recruit him period! These are buzz words for he should be better but he’s not.
2. Recruit backups. Apparently only Illinois had guys missing due to injury against Maryland. I mean if you only have one small forward and one stick shooter ( also known as spot up shooters) then I believe the odds are good you will lose their services at some point during a four year career.
My team:
2 point guards. Both must be able to penerate all the way to the glass and be able to break down two men on a press. One a shooter one a defender.
3 shooting guards - all ball handlers in case a point goes down. One must be able to play s. forward in a pinch.
2- small forwards - one a pure slasher, the other more perimeter quality.
3- power forwards - typical Illini guys will suffice.
1 - true center - never would this be compromised.
The rest is the rest. Playing defense is a given. We would press at least once an eon!
Nobody outside the top 100!!
While I appreciate the belittling of anyone expressing concern. Isn’t that really the simplest reply. I mean how is that so far removed from “I know you are”.
Bill Arter - Sorry! I did not realize you were boycotting me! But really if I don’t propose a bet and someone challenges me do I not have the right to negotiate terms?
I will swear on my soul that if the Illini win a NCAA championship I will leave the blog forever!! Well not before writing a lenghty and eloquent tribute to Coach Weber ( or more acurately the next coach). Now let’s see who squirms knowing that Weber is “keeping me on this blog”.
To all the pro Weber folk. How many times do you really believe he has seen this high school freshman play in person? I mean the max is one right! And eigth grade film maybe 5, 10? Sounds to me like this offer is based on his Scout ranking more than actual visual assesment. So how is he right to do it that way and not the rest of us realists?
Guys we are all the same fan. We know the Illini will let us down. Half choose to soften the blow by saying everything they do is okay. The other half say there going to screw up somehow. It’s all just a way of coping with a lifetime of disappointment!
Bart - I’ve made a copy of your post. Could you be a doll and give a timeframe. Just for history mind ya! I won’t count that as responding to me just in case you were worried!
November 30th, 2006 at 5:26 pm
(I know this was brought up earlier by several fellow blogsters, but knowing how lazy some of our Naddering Nabobs of Negativism can be when it comes to the truth, I’m gonna save them the trouble of clicking on the link provided)
ATTENTION LEMON KRUSH: YOU HAVE BEEN DEEMED PREDICTABLE BY YOUR BLOG HOST…
=======================================
“Predictably, Illinois’ 72-66 loss to Maryland on Tuesday has convinced some fans that a roster infected with clunky third-rate recruits and coached by a man who can’t teach or concoct strategy is on the fast track to eternal ruin and damnation.
Forget Illinois’ winning in the ACC/Big Ten Challenge. This team couldn’t survive in the CCIW/Big Ten Challenge.
I love the way sweeping declarations of gloom and doom pour forth at the first whiff of failure, but that’s the common view nowadays. All or nothing at all…
Point: This team is headed for a second-division Big Ten finish.
Comment: How could anyone possibly know where this team is headed? And therein lies everyone’s measure of hope.”
- Mark Tupper, Herald & Review - 11/30/06
=======================================
Careful there Tupps… however small their minority might be, there are still people here who don’t know the meaning of “hope.”
November 30th, 2006 at 5:51 pm
Editor Boy… no, the point is not that we beat Wake at home and OSU lost at UNC. The point is that with a frosh point guard who looks better after eight college starts, seven against patsies, than Deron does after three years of tourney play at UI and one season in the pros AND without their starting monster center, also a frosh, who was the consensus No. 1 NBA draft pick had he been allowed to go the Bucks nearly took down a much more seasoned UNC team on the road.
And the point, further to that, is that Thad Matta showed up at an OSU program on self-imposed probation, in utter disarray, and has still managed to bring in recruits exponentially better than ours in what appears to all acounts to have been a legitimate and honest manner. That’s the point.
Oh, and there’s not “nowhere to go but up” for us. There is a steady sideways to down drift unless we can put better product on the floor.
Jimmy Dee (#90) - See preceding comment to Editor Boy. FYI, nothing will diminish the electric memory of that December night v. Wake for me. But the fact is that given our tremendous run since c. 2001 there is absolutely no excuse for Matta to out-recruit Weber at OSU, which is a football school and mediocre university. And, my friend, he has outflanked us in every possible manner. Not bad given the sordid recent history of his program (back past O’Brien to Randy Ayers) and his production of one NCAA tournament win in two seasons, a squeaker v. Davidson. Yeah, some days I do wish we would have snagged Thad to move back home to suburban Hoopeston.
How galling is it going to be to have to watch OSU eclipse us this year with talent we should have had snagged given the state of IU’s program under Davis. Thank goodness we get them in Champaign early (maybe Oden won’t even be ready then… I pray) and don’t have to go to Columbus given our abysmal recent showings there. I count three straight unforgiviable losses there.
Algonquin Bill: Perhaps I am being too harsh on Weber for lacking ambition to coach at a big time program. However, I can’t call Roy Williams taking over KU at 38, Wooden taking over UCLA at 38 and Ray Meyer taking over DePaul at 29 as cases of middle aged guys assuming the reins. 38 is young to take the helm of a national championship team (which Roy inherited from Larry Brown).
And what do I propose to do about all this, as you ask? Exactly what I am able to do: absolutely nothing. I can just sit and hope that Weber can produce the goods, praise the many wonderful things he has done over the past three seasons and wish our boys the best this year.
That does not, however, mean that I will sit here with electrodes attached to my frontal lobe and administer intermittent jolts of current that distract me from the reality of where our talent base stands barely one season after nearly winning the whole ball O’ wax.
Give me something substantial to cheer and you’ll hear it. So far… one freshman big man with some far-off potential IMO. That’s ridiculous.
November 30th, 2006 at 6:05 pm
Algonquin Bill - I do want to say that I am sorry for not really reading your posts. I realize you are on the opposite side but you seem willing to construct something of an arguement. Not that you said this but I’ll ask you: If we are not suprised by certain losses, and we win the ones we all know we should win then what was the really great feat that was accomlished. I mean what defines a great coach? Doing what you should? I understand you have faith in Weber. What is the option? He ain’t going anywhere for a long time and thinking he aint the answer could drive you crazy if you care too much.
Say Guenther fired Weber after th end of this season. What would be the glaring difference between his cumultive record and Mike Davies formerly of Indiana? I’m curious to your thoughts.
November 30th, 2006 at 7:41 pm
RPIC Editor Boy wow act more childish. Reading everything you post makes me feel ten times more mature than you and well I’m in high school. way to go
November 30th, 2006 at 8:07 pm
I was listening to radio on way home and heard that Bill Self just got a 5-yr extension at $1.3M/yr. The one complaint I have about Ron Guenther is that he seems to pay below market salaries to his coaches. Weber, I think, makes about $800,000 and he has a Final Four appearance to his credit vs. none for Self. I remember that Guenther wanted to reward Weber after the Championship game, but Weber told him to give it to his assistant coaches. Why should Weber have to do that? Can’t Guenther pay market salary. The Assembly Hall is sold out for every game. Seems the same with the assitant football coaches, where there was a revolving door, which I believe was caused by low salaries. Maybe that’s why there is a coaching breakdown during football games when special teams play and game strategy are not up to college standards. Need to get coaches with better backgrounds.
November 30th, 2006 at 11:10 pm
Algonquin Bill…I’ve been wondering for some time as to why you come across like an attack dog, fiercely going after anybody that talks the truth about Mr. Guenther…knowing all along darn well that all the critism of him is true and right on target. Furthermore, you have never answered the question as to how you can justify your support for and/or defend someone who has resided over the indisputable total destruction of ALL our sports at IL…with the Men’s Basketball being the latest casulty…in short, you have been fiercely defending the indefensible.
But why? Surely you are smart enough to know that when ALL our sports at IL are in a rut (as they have been for a long time) and continuing to get worse, the blame can’t merely be placed on these coaches alone. And even if it could, he is the one who hires these folks. So, there is no dispute as to the root cause of all the IL sport miseries lying at the feet of our AD, Mr. Guenther. But still, that doesn’t answer the question about you…as to why you, personally, so vehemently protect Mr. Guenther on these blogs? After all, as a public figure, paid by the Illinois taxpayers, the public has every right to question his performance…especially since he has been such an incompetent AD and a total failure.
Then, all of a sudden…Bingo…the fog was lifted… at a luncheon today I heard that Mr. Guenther has planted some of his stooges in these IL blogs as Trojan horses to vehemently defend and protect him, knowing that his days are numbered.
Well, Algonquin Bill, what do you know about this and is it true? Would Mr. Guenther really sink that low to stifle debate about his performance and retainability as IL AD in these blogs? Listening to you, they seem to have some ring of truth to them…but we’ll let you do the explanation since you know him so well and are such a huge supporter of him.
So, as my frined REB would say, “CARRY ON”…we are all ears, professor!
November 30th, 2006 at 11:19 pm
Randy, if you are in high school, run away while you still can. As you can see, being a fan of the Illini is often a labor of frustration released in immature tirades, proclamations, etc.
Save yourself while theres still time.
Speaking of maturity, can we at least start getting some threads with a theme to them. If Tupper talks about recruiting, lets talk about that. Ex, this one could have been about the guard play and what we think needs to happen to turn things for the better.
How about we give it a try???
Also, how’s about we stop referencing Mr. Tupper as the final word that your point/points are accurate. Mark is a good man who makes this all possible for us. However, I think he would say himself that his is an opinion and he is not all-knowing. As he said himslef basically, “who know about this team”.
If he doesn’t know, after his constant access to them, neither do we.
December 1st, 2006 at 12:47 am
Kentucky Mike - I’m crushed that you haven’t been reading my posts.
You really have been missing some subtle wit and well-positioned humor…if I do say so myself…regardless of which side of the issues you are on. But I inherently save those jabs for the buffoons on this blog that speak emotionally or without thinking…or that are 1-trick ponies. If I find someone making well-thought out arguments for their position, I respect that, and thus leave them alone.
As to your question: I simply don’t know. But the faith I have in BAM is not blind faith, or faith just because he wears the orange jacket. I mean, in a tight game, I definitely have more faith in BAM to pull it out than I did in Self or Kruger..or even Coach Henson…who I respect a lot and like tremendously as a person. But in coaching prime, I think BAM is a better sideline coach than the other 3.
And maybe that’s the answer to your question. You said it…he wins the games’s he is supposed to…and most of the toss ups…and his share of the upsets. Isn’t that what it is all about? Successful coaches get the gimmes, most of the toss ups, and an occasional upset. And not just Vegas upsets. Upsets when your team doesn’t have it that night and they still manage to win. And I think that is the answer to your other question. Mike Davis lost the ones he shouldn’t have lost, and didn’t win enough toss ups. At least that was the perception….and perception is reality.
Didn’t mean to get overly deep…Quick! Where’s my John Wayne poster!?!
Does that answer your question? On the recruiting side, I think that he simply ran into 2-3 things he couldn’t control with Sheyer and Collins and Wright…seriously…. and then the rest snowballed. We will never know how many guards steered clear because they thought Gordon would be the man here for 2-3 years. Hey, I would love a 5* recruit as much as the next guy. I don’t know what goes thru these kids heads…and who’s whispering in their ears.
I don’t think they realize what they are missing by not playing for Illinois and BAM. They all assume they are the next Carmelo Anthony…in and out…and on to the pros. But I don’t have the answers on the recruiting front. One thing that would be nice, is if our largest state city media gave as much love to the Illini they do to DePaul, Notre Dame, etc. Who knows? Maybe we are missing an “ace” recruiting assistant. This is not my specialty. My specialty is making fun of people who take themselves too seriously.
On a positive note, I think it will be fun to watch Carlwell grow throughout the season, and I think Randle will have a lot to say about who wins the Big Ten….if he ever gets healthy.
Keep the faith…..
December 1st, 2006 at 12:53 am
I too think it is funny how quickly people jump on the webber hating band wagon. A few things go differently and everyone would be talking about how much of a genious weber was Tuesday. The problem seems quite simple, they are a young team. They are going to make bone head plays and have nights when you wonder if you are watching a high school game. I seem to remember a time when Dee, Luther and Deron were second tier recruits. Everyone needs to give the man time to get a bunch of young players, working together and all thinking on the same page. I think that people have forgotten that Weber is the man. He took a team nobody thought anything about and took them two games, just a few points from the impossible; an unbeaten season and the national championship. Give him some time and he will make you all believe again.
December 1st, 2006 at 1:09 am
KY Mike,
Please tell me you aren’t a Mt. Zion alumni. If so, we might have to revoke your alumni status. I am still awaiting your answer. You always bash Weber and everything else about the Illini program. It’s always easy to criticize someone. Tell us what you would do if you were in charge. I’m very anxious to hear your response. I am guessing you are a long, suffering Cubs fan with all of that negativity built up inside of you. Let it out. We can get you help.
Anyone notice that Pruitt has nice moves if he posts up on the left side of the basket, but puts up a horrible shot when he’s on the right side? Doesn’t seem like he worked on his game over the summer. Don’t worry my friends. It’s one loss and early in the season. Give Weber a chance. Go Illini!
December 1st, 2006 at 8:16 am
I look forward to going to Arizona and getting smoked by a freshman. We have good players that are well coached by BAM and some play hard. They simply don’t have the talent to play against other talented teams.
We can beat a good Bradley team on our home court, but I didn’t see anything that will be able to compete with other well coached but talented teams. Bruce Weber is a good coach, but is not that much better than all the others to make up for the talent difference.
I really feel bad for the EJ situation leaving our cupboard empty, but that has many on this blog concerned. And it isn’t only Schyer, Rose, and Gordon. I don’t care where we get the talent from, heck Alaska (sorry about the Dook reference), we simply don’t have the talent to go very far. We will be good, but not great.
I think we are all Illini fans at heart, and there is just some disappointment in the realistic view that we failed miserably on our first real test - and at home. For those that believe if we ‘only shot better’ forget that MD was a great defensive team coming into this game, and our shooting was the result of their defense. I love the Illini, but we were never really in that game. After a small spurt after they let down, they simply came back the second half, shut us down, and shot 72 percent. When a team shoots 72% and holds us cold, that isn’t time to say ‘if only we hit this shot or that shot’.
I believe MD was a very good team, and were down the last two years. Arizona was down the last two years (to their standards) and I think is back on track.
I hope we can take our down year, surprise some people, and recruit for the 2008 class. The fear here is that our down years don’t have any prospect of turning around. Those are the ‘realists’ view.
I haven’t seen Lewis Jackson play, so I can be wrong, but not many 5′ 9″ players make much of an impact at this level. Having watched our small guards struggle to get shots off the past few years, we need at a minimum 6′ 2″ or better.
Good luck to coach Weber, I for one will be rooting for you. You are an outstanding coach, and I hope you can get these players turned around this year and surprise some people, it may be what is necessary to convince the young players to come here.
Last note, I watched Patrick Beverly play for Arkansas, and saw a little too much me, me, me in him. I am glad we missed on him. Now go kiss and make up with his HS coach and get the next kid that does fit our program.
Best of luck to the Illini, we will need it.
December 1st, 2006 at 9:37 am
For #99 and DIF #100: It’s very simple why “Coach” Guenther doesn’t want to pay top dollar for coaches: he prides himself on keeping the DIA (barely) in the black and raising funds. Meantime, the football program is in the crapper and concerns are being raised about the men’s basketball program.
Further, remember all these grandiose plans for renovating Memorial Stadium originally included renovating the horseshoe end. Now Warren Hood, in a fightingillini.com chat, tells us that the horseshoe renovation is on hold until more funds are raised!!!
It’s the “Dollar Store” approach to intercollegiate athletics. Like it or not, college sports is now an arms race. While other schools are using nucler weapons, Illinois is using a slingshot.
December 1st, 2006 at 10:32 am
Kentucky Mike. Your posts bring to mind a McCluhan quotation “even in mud there is the illusion of depth.”
December 1st, 2006 at 11:52 am
From http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/story.asp?id=255289 :
“I don’t know how you can criticize a staff that has been as successful as Illinois (has) been,” Self said. “Recruiting, a lot of it’s luck, a lot of it’s a crapshoot, a lot of it’s predicting the future. I’ve always been amused by the fact that games are won on the court but fans take almost as much pride in winning the recruiting battles.”
December 1st, 2006 at 12:02 pm
KY Mike… you are the star of this blog! You are a Karl Rove, Jim Carville & Mike Greenberg rolled into one keyboard! I love reading your posts - and all of the replies - its a blend of talk radio & Jerry Springer.
With regard to your comment on the freshman Jereme Richmond - I agree it could be a gamble…. but it’s one worth taking. It doesn’t take long to assess true talent. He played in many open gyms with the U of I team this summer like many recruits.
It is against the rules for the coaches to watch them play, but the PLAYERS report to the coaches who to invite back to the open gyms. Now I’m certain you were one hell of an athlete in your day - so I’m sure you can understand that its rare when 22 yr old grown men continue to request return visits from a 14-yr old so they can compete vs “equal talent”.
The same goes for the 16 year old jr. from Decatur Eisenhower.
I have agreed with 85% of your posts… the big picture is a national championship. Keep up the good work!
December 1st, 2006 at 12:42 pm
Algonquin Bill: I’m not sure what the answer is. I’ve been around recruiting and I know what a nasty, vile game it can be. To good, honest people it is disgusting and repulsive. But if Weber doesn’t have the stomach for it, then our fortunes are not going to improve under his tutelage. I do think we need to think more on a national scale with our recruiting efforts vs. depending on Illinois coaches for their support. But this has been an age-old problem for Illinois. The high school coaches want to be treated like royalty and yet, often, they cannot deliver a kid any more than anyone else.
I know that it is very difficult to recruit against Ohio St. and Michigan because they will give a kid, his family, his coaches, probably his whole damn neighborhood just about anything they want to get him. And the people involved are often very powerful, politically well-connected people. We have never enjoyed that luxury at Illinois. Evidences of wrong-doing has permeated the Ohio state football program for years, yet here they are with top recruits year-in and year-out, and playing again for a national championship with nary even a “slap on the wrist” from the NCAA. It’s what obscene amounts of cash can buy you with recruits, coaches and the NCAA.
We can’t fix it, and the NCAA won’t. And until someone muzzles guys like Vitale, it’s going to continue. TV will always favor the high-profile programs. And TV calls the shots in college athletics.
The good news? Weber has proven that he can get a team with no first-rounders into a NC game and give a team with 5 first-rounders a helluva tussle. The problem is finding enough players that are maybe one rung under an NBA first round who he can coach up to that level.
We just don’t have that right now.
December 1st, 2006 at 12:57 pm
Mr. Disgusted Illini Fan - #100 I am extremely flattered by your suggestion. In fact, that is the nicest thing anyone has ever said to me on this blog. (Sorry, RPIC, altgeld88, Dave S., Kentucky Mike…your comments were nice too…but D I F just paid me the ultimate compliment!) I must come off as an extremely intelligent individual to be accused of…in a word…”spying”. I rather like that.
Unfortunately, spying doesn’t pay real well. Kind of hard to apply for my state pension. Imagine the conversation:
“And what is your job, Mr. (name withheld)?”
“Oh, I’m a spy for Ron Guenther on Mark Tupper’s blog.”
“I see. I don’t think that qualifies under any of our 15,026 state employee categories.”
“Couldn’t you just take it out of former governor George Ryan’s pension? I don’t think he’ll be drawing from it.”
“Good point. Where can I reach you?”
“I’ll be hiding in a closet in A D Guenther’s office. Here’s my cell phone number.”
But seriously, as to the rumor, I don’t really know how you want me to respond. I’ll get back to you after the D I A Christmas party.
December 1st, 2006 at 1:33 pm
Lewis Jackson is WAY to small to play in the Big Ten. I would even venture to say he is too small to play in the Missouri Valley. He does not have any way near the athleticism of a Nate Robinson, Tajuan Porter, or Keydren Clark. If he was smart, he would sign with a Mid-Con or Ohio Valley school. He’ll just get eaten alive in a BCS conference.
December 1st, 2006 at 3:04 pm
Josh A,
I definitely agree with you. Illinois, Iowa, and even Bradley would be extremely foolish to sign Lewis Jackson.
December 1st, 2006 at 3:34 pm
Maybe Lewis Jackson would be better fit in the CCIW…
December 1st, 2006 at 4:12 pm
It seems almost senseless to constantly engage in these harangues about Weber’s inability to recruit. The facts speak for themselves and I recall coach saying that they needed to reevaluate recruiting after they missed on Collins.
Two things: (1)I think that Weber is here to stay for quite a while. (2)With one as almost a given, then we can only hope that he has learned along the way to make some changes and hopefully we saw one with the way he went after Jereme Richmond. I believe he has learned also that is easier to “buiid a fence around the state” like Indiana is trying to do versus going outside and running the risk of a recruit decommiting like Gordon did. From what I have read and I even wrote him a letter to this point, he needs to be a bit more careful with the verbiage he uses to recruits so they can think they are special. Get away from this “we don’t need you, but we’d like to have you” garbage. This could be wrongly interpreted by some recruits and Weber needs to realize that many of these high caliber studs have to be sold on Illinois and stroked regarding their potential worth to the program. I am not so sure this has happened.
I am going to sit back and wait until our team is healthy and not overreact. I am also going to wait and see what coach does for future recruiting before I dismiss him as a failure. The class of 08 will be key. I am hoping that the Richmond success is just the beginning and things will start to improve.
December 1st, 2006 at 4:59 pm
It makes me wonder how many five-star recruits Mr. Riggs has landed that makes him think he has more knowledge about recruiting than a D-1 coach? Give me a break. Why on earth are you writing Weber giving him advice? When you become a coach at the collegiate level, you can take your own advice. Ridiculous.
December 1st, 2006 at 5:05 pm
Tupps - RE: your article today. I’d add to the carlwell suggestion - that Rich Mc needs to earn his minutes. He’s getting too many for what we’re getting from having him on the floor. Not saying anything other than at this point he is not earning the minutes he is getting. Hopefully, he will correct whatever is keeping him from being all he can be, but until then - a little less on court time seems to be in order.
Tom B
December 1st, 2006 at 5:23 pm
Josh A, Mark R & Bill R..
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Would you mind elaborating on the amount of athleticism it requires to compete in the Big Ten, Missouri Valley … or the CCIW?
Should you be able to run a 10.2 100-yd dash? Should you have a 40″ vertical and the ability to flush 360-degree dunks with the opposite hand?
What should your assist-to-turnover ratio be? How many alley-oop dunks does over 6′7″ + opponents should he complete before he gets credit from his own community.
It’s rare that Decatur has something to cheer for. Why are we so negative. Why don’t you attend an Eisenhower game & sit on the floor… then imagine how much more talented Chester Frazier is than Lewis Jackson.
Then remember that Jackson just got his driver’s licencse… and can play above the rim.
December 1st, 2006 at 6:12 pm
Lewis Jackson isn’t any smaller than Dee Brown. He played pretty well in the Big 10.
Also…bear in mind that LJ is a Jr in high school and may have a few more inches to grow.
December 1st, 2006 at 6:26 pm
VB,
I do believe that Decatur should be proud of Lewis Jackson. He is very good, but I still wouldn’t put him against any Big Ten or Missouri Valley players. I wouldn’t go as far as saying he should play in the CCIW, but I think he would have a nice collegiate career in the Mid-Con or Ohio Valley.
VB, you ask what amount of athleticism must a player have to play in the Big Ten or Missouri Valley? Well last time I checked, there hasn’t been a unit of measure created for athleticism. But at 5′8″, you better have athleticism spilling out your ears. VB, let me ask you this: Do you put Lewis Jackson in the same class as Nate Robinson, Tajuan Porter, or Keydren Clark?
December 1st, 2006 at 6:29 pm
Algonquin - My worry is he seems to have shifted gears about four times. He’s gone for the stud of the stud to Tisdale who may never even find the area code to the area code if you know what I mean. I am very back and forth on the Freshman (I will not use his name till he at least can go to Prom!). It was however, very cool seeing the Chief logo on the Scout.com board declaring his commit. I do agree that many of our problems are from our own state. Specifically media and coaches. I believe Tupper should get like minded media together and call out the Chicago media and Coaches that are hampering this thing. Seriously they are hurting us more than naysayers on this blog ever could. As for Weber your point about winning games where they don’t have there best is interesting. But every team who gets beat says they beat themselves (even when they get drilled). I understand shortening his bench against Maryland at home. I really hope he goes deep this game. I want Semrau to get 10 min, Carlwell 20, McBride 0. Keep out Jamar, we know he can play. There are still pastry games left before the Big Ten. Let’s play the guys who can turn this around!
Altgeld88 - You really took it easy on them regarding O. States domination of us recruiting wise. I did some fact checking last night and Motta is creaming us!!!! I’ll post it later after this one gets turned over. You write with a true elegance! As the great poet Bono says. “Don’t let the bastards grind you down”
Brook Taylor - I thought you would at least last a week! Seriously though I feel like I have already given out to much info. I hope you missed my post #94. If you read that and still thought I had no answer then crapola you are a task master. I give this analogy to describe us “realists”
The “04-05″ season was like a ten story building. The elevator opened and we got to party on the 9th floor. Last year it opened on the 6th floor. Decent looking chicks, nice booze but nothing like the 9th floor. We know all the chicks names on the 6th floor and were bored with their stories, same songs etc. We’ll always go past the 1-5 floors. But if we keep getting out on 6, or 7 the party becomes old.
Or try this one: You can have good times with a 6 or a 7 but the great stories are with the 10’s!! ( Sorry Illini Amy, it’s the only analogy I thought both sides could relate to)
VB - I hope you are sincere. I have a very fragile psyche!! Yes the Freshman sounds impressive. What really intrigues me is he has a hell of a chance getting to 6-7 ish. I can’t be more against the Decatur kid. Never seen him play, probably never will. He’s just too small, and we don’t need to recruit Decatur. If Weber must then wait. But an early commit to this kid would redefine foolish! Even if he became the second Kobe. Do Not Offer early!!!!
DIF - You can use Kansas’s (?) decision to extend Self against the other side ( man is it hard describing them without the terms!). They always give Guenthers long term deal as proof he is good. Now what are they going to say? The only idiots to do long term deals is Kansas. I mean Self is a joke right. Then he gets extended. Or is our board the perfect one! Get my drift here? Oh crap! did I say this all out loud!
SOMEBODY, ANYBODY, LOVE ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!
December 1st, 2006 at 6:57 pm
Since this is by far the most posts for the young season, I just want to welcome all the infinite sunshine and happy face club members to the DARK SIDE. Funny how the things being said by myself and others on this blog (KY Mike, Xavier) were dismissed as rubbish before this game. NOW everybody is saying the same things. So, either we were psychic or maybe , just maybe, we do know a little bit about what it takes to put together a team that can win basketball games. Gee, who would have thunk it?
December 2nd, 2006 at 3:50 pm
Brandon,
Dee Brown is actually 4in taller than Lewis Jackson… so there is no comparison.