I swear, this Illini basketball team can wear a person out.
I can only imagine what it might be like to be coaching it or playing on it.
The latest chapter in this often-puzzling saga started Tuesday night with news that senior center Shaun Pruitt, the team’s leading scorer and rebounder, would not play. Pruitt was wearing his warmups but did not participating in shooting drills. And he never got into the game.
The reason? We were told it was not academic, not a legal matter and not an injury. Then, after Illinois’ 64-58 loss at Ohio State, Bruce Weber had this to say:
“As for Shaun Pruitt, it’s a team matter, a family matter. It’s being handled internally. We hope he has a positive attitude and we get him back involved with us. That’s what we’re hoping he’ll do the rest of the week.
“It’s how he reacts to everything. If he comes to practice and works his butt off, he’ll be fine,” said Weber, who indicated that Pruitt has not missed any practice time.
My take: Pruitt probably lipped off either after the Purdue game or in a subsequent team practice or meeting and Weber decided this was no time to have players pulling in different directions. So he dropped the hammer on Pruitt, who came into the game having started every game since the start of his sophomore season (87 straight starts).
So freshman Mike Tisdale started against Ohio State and Tisdale had four points, three rebounds and a career-high 20 minutes. But the encouraging breakthrough came from junior college transfer Rodney Alexander, who had been both injured and very, very quiet since a promising start in Hawaii.
Alexander had career highs of 20 points and 11 rebounds and gave Illinois’ offense a badly needed spark. Can this continue? Can Alexander emerge as a threat to be counted on?
“Consistency,” Weber said. “That’s one of the words we wrote on the board tonight. It would be nice if we could get that.”
Illinois trailed by 10 at the half, in part because Brian Randle (1-for-11), Calvin Brock, Demetri McCamey and Chester Frazier were a combined 1-for-18 shooting the ball.
But Randle started to knife through the Ohio State zone in the second half and he finished with 13 points and 10 rebounds. Trent Meacham hit four 3-pointers and had a dozen points.
Ohio State built its lead to 55-40 with six minutes to play and it looked like this one might get away. Instead, Alexander and Randle sparked a frantic rally that turned it into a one possession game. And when Kosta Koufos missed two free throws with 32.8 seconds to go, Illinois was one rebound and one basket away from tying the game.
But with Ohio State leading 61-58, David Lighty stole the rebound and was fouled. He made both free throws to extend the Buckeye lead to 63-58. And after Alexander missed a 3-pointer, Koufos was fouled and hit one free throw to help Ohio State end a three-game losing streak.
Weber was asked how his team played without Pruitt.
“I think they played with a lot of heart and didn’t quit today. They showed some character and a positive attitude. That’s all we kept talking about was competing. Don’t lay down and we didn’t.
“It was frustrating because Ohio State hit some big 3s. And we made some bad decisions with the ball. Chester and Demetri made some bad lobs trying to hit home runs. Those are key plays and that was kind of disappointing. I’m just happy they hung in there down the stretch. I hope it’s a positive thing we can build on moving into the second half of the Big Ten.”
Brock struggled through his second straight tough game. This time he had no points, no assists and five turnovers in 11 minutes. (He had one assist and six turnovers at Purdue). If Alexander can demonstrate some consistency, he may get some of those minutes. If Alexander can play like he did on Tuesday, he should get all the minutes you can throw his way.
And Billy Cole got into the game and played five minutes, hitting a 3-pointer at a time when Illinois was trying to come back. That was nice to see.
A tough play came right before the half when Randle went in for a dunk, which is something I think he should do every time he thinks about shooting. But this time he hammered the ball off the edge of the rim and the ball bounced all the way to the Ohio State bench.
I thought Illinois moved the ball pretty well against the Ohio State zone. But until Alexander started knocking down some shots, only Meacham seemed a viable option to hit from the perimeter. Overall, I liked the ball movement. Frazier (5 assists, 2 turnovers) and Meacham (3 assists, 1 turnover) kept it moving. Now, if Meacham and Alexander can hit from outside, and if Randle will drive it inside (and finish) and if McCamey will just calm down (he was 1-for-8 shooting), Illinois will have a better chance against these zones.
Tisdale definitely needs more strength, which will come, but even now I’d like to see him use more posts moves when he catches the ball near the basket. He can be more of a threat inside than he showed against Ohio State. And he’ll need to if Pruitt is going to be out any longer.
January 23rd, 2008 at 1:15 am
Nice to see Alexander and Cole getting some playing time. Pruitt probably needs some time off, it’s been a really tough season out there.
January 23rd, 2008 at 2:24 am
You know, when I was watching the Illinois-Wisconsin game, I took note of Erin Andrews’ comments about her talk with Pruitt before the game. She said that he was sitting sulking on the bench during the shoot-a-round, and that he complained to her about how “he had never lost so much since 7th grade.” So she said she had to tell him, “well, you’re a senior, do something about it!” That’s just sad. Later in the broadcast, she went in to further details on her talk with Pruitt. She related how he told her that the booing at the Assembly Hall had really gotten to him and to the team, and that they were happy to be on the road. Honestly, I couldn’t believe the comments at the time. I remember thinking to myself what a poor attitude he displayed to her, for her to then relate to a national ESPN audience. A good attitude would mean putting a positive face on for the media….not whining to Erin Andrews. Maybe he thought he was “making friends” with her or something? Regardless, his true attitude really revealed itself. I mean, imagine what he’s saying around his impressionable young teammates if he has the “boo boo” face with the media like that. It’s disappointing that a senior and pre-season All-Big Ten selection is so devoid of leadership. Why hasn’t he progressed more as a leader during the last four years?
January 23rd, 2008 at 7:48 am
No way Frazier had 5 assists last night. This padding of his stats since the booing incident has to stop.
January 23rd, 2008 at 7:59 am
I also listened to Erin Andrews’ comments and remember it a little differently. I don’t believe she said anything about Shaun sulking on the bench. She said something along the lines that he was “really down” and said he said he “hadn’t lost this many games since 7th grade.” Could it be that you’re injecting your own spin on this? I see that all the time on this board, ie. Weber doesn’t like Demetri, Weber’s “sucking all the confidence” out of the freshmen, etc. Folks keep harping on these points even though there hasn’t been a single player say anything to indicate there’s an ounce of validity to them. I don’t know what Shaun did, and frankly, I trust Weber has meted out the appropriate punishment. Shaun is a vital part of the mix and we need him back. Let’s hope he learns from his mistake. I just wish people would stop creating preceived conflict and then spouting it as gospel.
January 23rd, 2008 at 8:02 am
I told you yesterday. Illinois is the best team in the Big Ten. They just don’t have any chemistry. I think a large part of that is attributable to Pruitt & Frazier. The chemistry was much better last night. Pruitt is the most selfish player to wear an Illini uniform in a long time. Weber has stayed with Pruitt, Randle & Frazier way too long. Alexander, Cole, Tisdale, Davis & McCamey should have gotten many more minutes a long time ago. By the way, what was Frazier doing on the floor the last four minutes of the game? He wasn’t going to score & he he wasn’t going to make any free throws & he is a turnover waiting to happen (e.g. Maryland & Arizona). What possible reason does Coach Weber offer for having him on the floor at crunch time? Just asking.
January 23rd, 2008 at 8:06 am
I hope this breakout game gives Alexander’s confidence a boost. Good to see Tis get a lot of PT & Cole to even get in the game. It seems like we can’t get all the players to have a good game at the same time. Too bad about SP. I guess he doesn’t have the personality to work through these problems & be a leader. I still don’t think booing is the best way to show dissatisfaction at the Hall…..silence would be less counterproductive.
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Quote by BW in Tupp’s article this morning: “We could see that if you move the ball & pass it & cut through, OSU seems to lose people. I kept telling Brian if he passes & cuts through, he’d get the ball. In the second 1/2, we finally got him to do that a little bit.” Why does a 5th year senior need to be told this? Also, maybe those of you who are high flyers like Randle can answer this. How do you clang an attempted jam off the back of the rim when noone is in your way & that is the thing that you do the best? Is it lack of concentration and/or anticipating contact that doesn’t come or whatever else? Go Illini!
January 23rd, 2008 at 8:07 am
At least BW’s showing us that he’s got control of the ship. I wouldn’t mind if he sat both his seniors. Davis and Alexander need playing time to continue to gain confidence. Davis and Tisdale need to EAT and hit the weight room…I’m tired of hearing about how hard Chester plays. He DOESN’T play smart, so it doesn’t matter how hard he plays…stick with Demetri, he’s the future…
January 23rd, 2008 at 8:38 am
I am shocked that Weber suspended a player he recruited. This program is a sinking ship with our mid-major coach at the helm. More playing time for Steve Holdren please!
January 23rd, 2008 at 8:50 am
You are so right Illini fan, there’s no reason for Chester to be on the floor at the end of a game. No offensive threat, turnover waiting to happen! I don’t care that he’s the greatest practice player in the world-in games, he’s a liability!
January 23rd, 2008 at 9:46 am
One more thing…I don’t care if Shaun Pruitt ever plays again. Will his playing mean more victories? I don’t think so. Does anyone really believe his absence last night affected the outcome of the game?
January 23rd, 2008 at 9:49 am
Two things jumped out at me:
I have said for weeks that it appeared Shaun Pruitt is more interested in his own personal stats than what he can do to help his team win. He is a senior and should start acting like one. If he is the one who called out his teammates, shame on him. I am sure no one got on him for blowing two free throws that cost us the win against Tenn. St. He gets incredibly selfish on offense and when things aren’t going well, plays lousy defense.
Second, I hope this is the Rodney Alexander we heard about early on. He was terrific and should either be getting more minutes or a start if Brock continues his spotty play.
January 23rd, 2008 at 9:58 am
It is a Miracle!!! The blind can now see. CHESTER IS HORRIBLE!!!!!
January 23rd, 2008 at 10:12 am
The more I watch this team, the more I think we’re going be substantially better next year, at the very least due to addition by subtraction.
I realize Pruitt is our best post player right now, but I haven’t liked his lack of effort, athleticism, attitude all game; and while Randle is undoubtly our most talented player, he’s simply a headcase, and incapable of materializing his skills. The rest of the team plays pretty bad because they’re looking to these two for leadership on and off the court.
With more perimeter threat next year (hopefully), with McCamey taking over permanently at the PG spot (cross your fingurs), and with the youngesters and Brock/Alexander taking charge rather then relying on Pruitt/Randle, we should some considerable improvement.
January 23rd, 2008 at 10:44 am
Can Pruitt just sit out the rest of the season? Please? Give Tis and Cole his minutes. Randle should be able to drive in and either dunk or get fouled anytime he wants to. Being a lefty is a huge advantage that he still fails to use. I hate when people don’t use there God given abilities. Glad to see a big game out of Alexander and Tis. I didn’t see the game last night. How did McCamey do?
FRG- You are calling for a transfer walk-on to play. Even Mr. Mid-Major as you call him knows that is not the solution.
January 23rd, 2008 at 11:12 am
Illini Fan - I disagree with some of your posts, but you are right on with this one. Chemistry is huge in all sports, but mostly CBB. With Pruitt out last night, the team did look more together, and the motion flowed better. I do think Pruitt is also frsutrated wth the fact that with the poor record, he needs to pad stats to validate to NBA exploration last summer. He’s being a baby right now (ie reactions during the Purdue game on not getting the ball enough)and is extremely selfish. It’s ike a Black Hole when the ball goes inside to him and completely stalls the offense. The kid is a European Pro Leauge ball player at best. Play Tinsdale and Davis more.
January 23rd, 2008 at 11:59 am
Do you guys think that Alexander excels at a game like this because they’re playing zone, so the defensive intensity is less, and more akin to what he’s experienced in the past (at the JV level)?
This was his best game since the Arizona State game… did they zone the entire time as well? If so, I wonder if he’s an answer to our zone problem.
(Obviously, we’re not going to beat many people shooting 30% when they shoot 60%, but still).
January 23rd, 2008 at 12:04 pm
This season is just plain brutal.
Wish we could make some trades–Wouldn’t it be great if we could trade Pruitt & Randle to some team looking to make a run in March for a couple of redshirt frosh?
January 23rd, 2008 at 12:17 pm
BrooksTaylor-It’s sarcasm, although most in East Central Illinois think I am serious. Archie-Weren’t people on this blog saying that the team would be better off without Carter & McBride? Blaming the seniors is a Bruce Weber tradition!
January 23rd, 2008 at 12:50 pm
Is that right, Illinois took 25 more shots than Ohio State? If they had made just 3/25 they win the game. The only personality this team has taken on is that of non-performers.
January 23rd, 2008 at 1:05 pm
Why can’t we play Brock and Alexander at the same time? Sit Randle and play the guys who are willing to move and capable of making shots.
If anyone else shot 1 of 11 and missed a wide-open dunk, Weber would have sat him. But, no, he sat McCamey to start the second half and left Randle in the starting lineup. WTF?
January 23rd, 2008 at 2:20 pm
4 Points. 3 Rebounds in twenty minutes, in a solid half of the game. Seven foot tall. Regardless if center is not his natural position… BROOKS!!!! you called that a good game… I want to know what the stat line for a bad game is. Everytime you write this crap, I can’t stop laughing. 4 points, 3 rebounds, 20 minutes. Great Game. Thanks but nah, just not gonna work.
January 23rd, 2008 at 3:23 pm
Annoymous, good blog. I sure hope none of the players ever read this blog.
NYCILLINI, interesting idea about making a trade.
I do not believe lack of effort is part of the problem. I see players playing hard. I believe the players are even more fustrated than the fans. Frustration, limited ability, and not sure what it willtake to turn things around is hard to overcome.
No Illini fan can be happy now. I do know that you can not help by kicking a team when its down. This is the time when they need a lot of support. Hay, I know what you must be thinking. Just think what you would do with you child if they are down and out and see no hope. You give then a big hug and tell you love them and will help then thru and problems.
January 23rd, 2008 at 3:36 pm
Check out Tupper’s interview of Weber on the day of the OSU game (”Getting to the point of Illini frustrations”). In it, there are many things Weber says that I just can’t buy.
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Contrast how Weber treats McCamey to how Matta treats McCamey’s old teammate Turner, now playing for OSU (and who had a great game last night). While Weber mainly knocked McC and sat him for making freshman mistakes (”tough love” he called it), Matta is very supportive of HIS frosh Turner: “He’s playing very good basketball…as with all freshman there’s a learning curve but he has been very coachable.” Matta, unlike Weber, knows how to support his players in public.
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Weber seems self-servingly defensive when it comes to Frazier. He points out the only positive stat on Frazier, his assist to TO ratio. He says CF “plays stronger” and “brings great energy.” “Stronger” probably means “more rebounds” which is NOT the pt. guard’s job; “great energy” is again more “plays hard” junk, instead of “playing smart.” Quit defending the indefensible, Coach!
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I also think he’s mishandled Alexander, who finally played well when Weber HAD to play him with Pruitt out; he couldn’t sit Alexander after his first mistake. Weber doesn’t know how to give confidence to his new guys. Maybe good times are ahead, but he doesn’t know how to handle the present situation!
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By the way, Weber must not know his own motion offense, according to some on this board, because he called the McCamey/Frazier position “the point guard position” — I thought that didn’t exist!
January 23rd, 2008 at 3:36 pm
NYCIllini, I wish we could make a trade but mark my words, there is not one team in college bb that having a chance to play in March, would be INTERESTED in either Pruitt or Randull!! I agree with eveyone else about sitting Pruitt & Randull and have been saying so for some time!! Pruitt & Randull have become a cancer preying on this teams chemistry, its past time to hold them accountable. Chi-town, you must not have watched Chester to closely this season, he can miss shots, turn the ball over, lose his man on the perimeter giving up wide open threes & yet Weber allows him all the playing time he can swallow!! On top of that Weber gives him unconditional love, talk about sending the wrong message to the rest of the team. Brooks I have always had your back because you fight the good fight ,and you are obviously a optimist!! When I see a chink in your optimism Iam afraid that this team is really on the verge of total collaspe. I hope that Weber has finally shown his man berries and will continue to make the difficult and necessary decisions to right this ship for the remainder of this season. What he does for the rest of this year will set the table for 08-09!! GO ILLINI !!!!!!!
January 23rd, 2008 at 3:57 pm
I think you’re onto something, Double A, about Pruitt being selfish because he wants to play in the NBA (roll of the eyes).
January 23rd, 2008 at 3:57 pm
Last night, even though we lost again, was a vast improvement in playing the game correctly.
Last time Pruitt played against Ohio State, we lost by 16 at home. Last night, we lose by 6 at Ohio State. I think that explains everything right there.
Bruce…. keep the youth and lets get ready for next year and the year after. Lets build for the future and re-load.This team is going no-where post season, and we need experience for later. I like the effort last night..they was trying to win the game.
Sean go ahead and quit……it wouldn’t hurt a bit……..
January 23rd, 2008 at 4:32 pm
I hope you are not parents…..ripping on Frazier and Pruitt like you do. These are just kids for goodness sake!!! Kids make mistakes and need to be nurtered and coddled.
January 23rd, 2008 at 4:41 pm
Tis needs to look to shoot everytime he touches the ball. He first looks to pass but his strength for the team is scoring and he won’t look to do that. Cole is still the one who needs to get looked at and for the life of me everytime I see him play looks better than most of those playing. Also lets keep looking at Holdern since I suspect he can shoot if he is left in the game long enough to get a shot off without getting in Weber’s doghouse.
January 23rd, 2008 at 5:39 pm
Ccorleone- Wow, you finally got me on something. Too bad it was a typo. I meant to say “Glad to see a big game out of Alexander and Tis starting” I was typing so fast I left off the word starting. No, I want better numbers out of Tis. Wish he would have played more than 20 minutes too. I would bench Pruitt and Randle and use Frazier as my backup PG. We aren’t going anywhere this year. Now is the time to use the young guys and try some new rotations. Work things out this year so we are ready to go next year.
Anti- No chink in my optimism. Once Griffey signs, it could be the greatest class ever at Illinois. I can stomach this bad year as long as the freshman play more and more.
January 23rd, 2008 at 5:45 pm
Hey Concerned Parent - stick to Canasta and classical music! This is about college basketball and the comments made about two super recruiting busts (Randle and Chester) are 100% accurate.
Maybe if Chester transfers we can find a JC slashing, rebounding stud who can create shots and provide leadership instead of “energy”!
January 23rd, 2008 at 5:59 pm
Illinois went down 11 times and not once did they get the ball insid. Tisdale had his man beat and had position several times. Brock needs to look inside more. Alexander never did get the ball inside. Randle doesn’t know how to pass it inside ans mcCamey only looks for a couple of people. I thought Tisdale was getting open, but noone seems to know how to pass inside. Tisdale is young and not very experienced at posting up. But, I thought he looked a lot better at it than the other Illinois players. Get the ball inside! Tisdale will pass it out unlike Pruitt. I’m sick of seeing sideway passes.I sa Two pick and rolls , however after the pick the ball didn’t go inside it went to one of the guards. Don’t blame Tisdale because he didn’t score rewatch the game and see how many times the ball went inside.
January 23rd, 2008 at 7:05 pm
Gator, this team hasn’t been able to pass it into the post for several years now. They should be anticipating a player flashing open but to no avail. They just stare, fake the pass one way and then go back around the circle with it.
Maybe they are afraid to pass it unless the guy is WIDE open, because if they turn it over, BAM will bench em.
Oh, I forgot. Everyone but Chester.
p.s. Arter, here is another one I called. BAM finally lets Rodney play and the guy responds. Sure hard to play when the coach destroys your confidence and gives you no PT.
Heck, BAM would never have played Warren if he didn’t “HAVE” to.
January 23rd, 2008 at 7:07 pm
He folks, here’s a quiz for ya (in honor of BAM)!!
Who was the greatest “Accidental” Illini Bball player of all time? That is, the player who turned out to be the greatest player an Illini coach never wanted to play?
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Answer Later.
January 23rd, 2008 at 7:27 pm
X - I go with Ken Norman. With honors to Chris Gandy, Warren Carter.
Guys coaches played WAAAAYYYY to long?
Efrem Winters, Chester, Gee?
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Brooks - You give Weber a PASS for this year? How many of those you got?
January 23rd, 2008 at 7:34 pm
I’m glad I never played HS or D1 BB, and never coached or reffed either. I don’t try to analyze and criticize and theorize. I’m just not into “izing”, I guess. What I do try to do is to listen to or watch the games, root for the Illini and feel great when they win and bad when they lose. Maybe I’m just an old Al who gives a hoot about the boys playing and the team working hard and doing their best. Does it really matter if we go to the F4 10 out of 12 years? Did all of you experts and critics have state champions in FB BB Tk or anything even once in HS? These young MEN playing are just one step above that venue. They are not “kids” but they surely lack experience. They don’t need to be booed or have their lacks (ability, leadership, confidence, IQs or anything else) called out, tossed on the web and stomped by a group who hides behind anonymity. Yes I am anonymous too, but I feel that the team and the coach deserve to be supported–not chewed up and spit out and belittled. Anyway, this may be my last posting here, because I don’t find the ranting and raving to be acceptable. I know there must be blogs that at least discuss the team without ripping them up. Our AD has been a boon to the UI and the coaches he hires have mostly performed well, even though they don’t always go bowling or F4ing. It’s not the destination, fellows, it’s the journey that counts. Relax. Enjoy. Support. Good bye.
January 23rd, 2008 at 7:39 pm
Didn’t see the game but saw the halftime boxscore. ZERO foul shots? I can’t think of a better way to get a struggling team to score than to attack the basket so little that you don’t shoot any free throws. Granted they are horrible free throw shooters but at least get the other team in foul trouble!
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How did I forget Randle on the stay with to long list?
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I got to watch the Tenn vs UK game last night. Gillespie has that team going north. Other than watching two teams who are ten times more entertaining than Illinois (yes even the sub .500 team plays more exciting basketball) I wanted to see if the Fans would storm the court after this win. It was good to see them stay in ther seats and simply applaud. It was like they were saying your Tennessee! Were supposed to beat you even if you are ranked #5! Your our dog and don’t you forget it! No real point to this post. Just couldn’t muster arguing over which spare should play more and how this next class would be the “best ever”. (We sure have a lot of “best class ever” for a team that aint making the NIT!)
January 23rd, 2008 at 7:44 pm
X -
Are you thinking about Chris Gandy?
January 23rd, 2008 at 9:05 pm
I thought the ball moved alot better last night at times. But then he bring fraizer in to the point and then he leaves him in there. I can see bring him in for a few minutes but then take him back out. Dont leave him in for meachum and then brock. We have others at there positions that can play. Why not put randell at the post at times and alexander brock or cole at the forwards. go with a smaller more mobile team. Attack the basket make the other team have too move on defense instead of resting on defense.guys basketball is NOT THAT DIFFUCULT. YOU RECRUIT SHOOTERS. and then you teach them how too play the best defense that they can play but they have too be able to shoot first. Because in the end you have too score points too win. 58 points a game? what ever happened too when we would score 100 a game? this team and style is boring. If were gonna lose lets score some points. Hopefully randell and pruitt, brock, mcamey and the rest will settle down quit worrying about the fans and the record and just relax have fun and remeber this game is fun and easy.
January 23rd, 2008 at 9:52 pm
I like to read these posts because most of the time people get on here and give their opinions and some people actually make some good points and I might hear a rumor that I didn’t know about prior to this. Let’s straighten out this Pruitt deal. He won’t go to the NBA it’s obvious to be in the NBA you have to be a banger like shaq or an athletic freak like dwight howard or you have to be able to shoot. Which of these is pruitt? He can’t shoot, and won’t be able to muscle his opponents around in the pros. Augustine was better than Pruitt and he gets very limited minutes. As for this being Bruce’s fault….get real. The man can only do so much. Think about it….what if he gives up on his seniors now? What does that tell his freshman? He has to support ALL of his players. I don’t like the PT that they get either but I’m not at practice everyday and I’m not out there with Coach Weber either. As for Frazier being a liability with the ball…..YES, he is, but why do you think we have Meachem bring the ball up instead of McCamey? It’s because McCamey makes the same mistakes. Hopefully McCamey is going to have a Deron-like developement over this offseason. I love how he plays but sometimes I think he goes for the show. Anybody else agree? Well I’m done here.
January 23rd, 2008 at 9:53 pm
About this posting and continuing with my debate with our friend, Brook, from the previous posting, I must admit that I used to be a Weber Fan. But, he has really turned me around against him with his horrible coaching this year as none of the players that he has recruited have improved at all…least of all his two seniors.
The problem with his team this year is that they haven’t imroved and they can’t beat anybody…they are in disarray and I really think the players are losing respect for Weber and the Pruitt incident is a symptom of that. Not that I am taking Pruitt’s side, but did Weber finally realized how lousy these two seniors (Pruitt and Randle) are, and how he has been wasting his time with them, just now? I’d have benched them long ago and give other players a chance to learn and improve. That’s why this team can’t win a crucial game because even mediocre teams do ambush and beat a good team once in a while…but not IL. Consider MD beating NC at Chapel Hill and IL losing to Purdue with 4 Freshman and a Sophmore…that right there should be an answer to Weber apologists that keep giving us excuses. Why do I say this? Because I happen to think that as bad as IL is this year they should have beaten MD at MD earlier this…I went to that game and I’m here to tell you that IL lost that game precisely because Gary Williams simply outcoached Weber…then MD goes to NC court and beats them there…and IL can’t buy a win to save its skin. That MD game that I saw in person was the game that convinced me that Weber is way over his head coaching IL and MD’s win over NC and all these IL losses (particularly the ones at home) has reinforced my view.
That’s why I firmly believe Weber should go…and I disagree with you, Brook, about giving him more time for new players coming in and all that promise stufff and wait til next year…and on and on and on …and the next thing we know he has been IL coach for 10 years and we (Fans and Alumni) standing there holding the bag with a .500 or worse team. No, sir…I say put the poor soul (and us, too) out of all these miseries and let him go now and hire a top quality and elite type of coach…for the right compensation package, they all will run with their tongue hanging begging Mr. Guenther for the job…I will promise you that, folks.
Incidentally, Brook, regarding all those great IL basketball records you mentioned…guess what, my friend, they rapidly are falling by the wayside…abother year of this guy as our coach and they won’t be worth the paper they’re written on.
January 23rd, 2008 at 10:56 pm
KM…got to give you some kudos my friend. I sense more kinder, gentile postings that beg for mostly positive interaction. Instead of only looking for ways to counter your points, I can now look for common ground without a premonition of a barbed response. thanks.
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rev…like the idea of a “play smart chart”. That may be a motivator since it would be mostly blank.
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DIF…as I scroll through the posts, It’s funny but I can usually tell who the poster is after reading just a line or two. I can appreciate your frustration…as we all are…but the constant negativity is hard to understand.
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Coaching is brought up alot. Brooks, others and myself have repeated what actual coaches have said about credit and blame. For the sake of argument, let me address the definition of coaching that NYC put forth awhile ago.
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“Team plays hard”. I have read alot of posts lately that it isn’t a lack of effort, but execution. IMHO since CF is the poster boy for this, that is why Weber praises him and plays him. In effect begging the others “please play this hard in practice and I will play you in games, just like I do with Chester”.
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“Few mental mistakes”…the bane of our failures this year. Repetition and game scenarios in practice can help fix this, but games are different than practice. My belief is mental toughness is more inherent than taught. My belief is Weber is teaching them not to pick up their dribble, drive close to the screen, don’t hand the ball off on the sideline, on and on.
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“Improve over careers” This is a Self v Weber player argument. Deron, Dee, Augie, Powell, Luther…improve??? Of course, they won didn’t they. The perception is improvement equals wins. True to a degree. But this team and players have improved, albeit on an inconsistent basis. Just vastly less talent, therefore much smaller growth curve.
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“Steal a win” Nope have not done it yet. Been close a few times this year, but still need to get one.
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“adjustments”..My belief is the adjustments are predicated upon who the adjusters are. Some on the players, such as Randle making the cut after the pass. Others are coaching…zone D, lineups, out of bounds plays.
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“Free throws”..an anchor around several losses. players say they shoot 80-90% in practice. Goes back to mental toughness and confidence. Almost a self fulfilling prophecy.
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If you are a parent, teacher, or coach, then you have taught your pupils in the fundamentals of your desired course. How is the execution? To what degree? In what cicumstances? For the most part, I think Weber is frustrated because his expectations are higher than the talent level allows. At least he hasn’t given up on them as several on here have and continue to do.
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peace brothers
January 24th, 2008 at 8:26 am
Here’s your pat on the back, X-man. I’m very happy to see RA do well. But keep in mind that part of the reason for his lack of PT has been an injured shoulder.
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illini gator - Since I didn’t get to see the game, I appreciate insight from people who did, & it sounds like you were one of them. It’s encouraging to here that Tis was getting open inside…..too bad someone couldn’t get him the ball. I guess only getting 4 points wasn’t entirely his fault.
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The Wise Old Al - There is a lot of level-headed wisdom in your post. I have tried to stay positive, but I’ve also been guilty of getting frustrated at times, mostly because of my Illini not playing sound, fundamental bball & not shooting FT’s well. It seems that a lot of college athletes today are not well schooled in the fundamentals, which should have been learned long ago, but are very gifted athletically & can overcome those shortcomings. Some cannot. Some are fundamentally sound, but lack the athleticism. I don’t blame you for leaving, but it would be nice to here from you once in awhile to help keep things in perspective.
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Nice post, Rosco…..peace to you. Go Illini!
January 24th, 2008 at 8:39 am
Disgusted Illini Fan:
Would you please give us five examples of these elte, Moses like coaches who are waiting in the wings to lead the Illini to the promised land.
Thank you
crk
January 24th, 2008 at 8:41 am
I hadn’t hit a shot in a while,” Alexander said. “My team kept pushing me to shoot the ball. The coaches told me to shoot the ball. My team helped me get over the wall.
Rodney Alexander
This does not sound like a player that has lost respect for his coach. crk
January 24th, 2008 at 8:45 am
Those who have issues with Weber should be realistic about things in that it’s incredibly easy to criticize someone else in the job they do when you’re not there day in/day out to see what all is involved. It seems like some of you just think that the players are all these innocent kids with a wide open mind that should just do whatever the coach tells them to do. If they don’t play well and/or win, then it’s bad coaching. sigh
For the limited exposure and being a freshmen I think Tisdale did alright. His lack of challenges in HS are definitely showing though so it might take longer than some for him to get on the right track.
Davis seems to be struggling but I’m not discounting him yet. He seems to have some natural instincts to him and he’s certainly putting effort into things when on the floor. Sadly he gets schooled too many times on d.
I know some of you are going to think I’m crazy but someone needs to teach Alexander how to shoot. Watch his legs when he shoots. His feet go all over the place. People get excited about his offense but the only thing he is consistent with on that side of the ball is dunks. If he doesn’t address that by next year, he’ll remain a streaky outside shooter. It was great seeing him making the effort on rebounding. That was huge.
On Frazier I too have to think that Weber has gotten too attached to Frazier. Yes, he’s strong with the ball but that’s very much open to interpretation. From my point of view I don’t care about his lack of scoring and too many dwell on that. His problem is simply that he holds onto the ball wayyy too much. He picks up dribbles when he shouldn’t. He won’t pass to anyone 99% of the time unless they are within 10 or so feet of him thus he brings more d to the player he’s passing to. And at Ohio St he made what was looking like a good play by driving in and passing straight ahead to an open Illini. The problem is that he screwed it up because he leaped into the air and passed. When he did this he nearly landed on top of the guy he passed to. Essentially he ended up guarding and preventing the shot from his own teammate.
I do believe that Weber knows how limited Frazier is but I also think he’s trying to avoid hurting Frazier’s confidence. There was an article at espn a few months ago that had a small tidbit about Frazier looking to transfer at one point. There was no reason given nor timeframe. I would assume it had to do with his father’s health last year. With all of that and comments Weber has stated I think his heart just goes out to him. To make things work out best for everyone it essentially means McCamey needs to practice and play to his potential which he hasn’t done. And those comparing him and Weber to Turner and Matta need to remember that Turner was a higher rated player(ie perceived better player). It only makes sense that a coach “seems” more nurturing if the player is already doing the things they need to do. Look back at Weber’s history with players that were pretty good to begin with and he’s only called people out when they simply weren’t cutting it.
We’re all desperate for some positive signs but in case no one has noticed, the signs are there and are getting closer to turning into wins. Fans need to keep a positive outlook just as the players need to. There is talent there..not top 10 talent yet but it’s there. The team just has to put it together. It’s more of a team/player problem than it is coaching.
January 24th, 2008 at 9:18 am
Here we go again-lets all listen to the sob stories about the Illini. Pruitt needs to sit and alopng side him Frasier. There are alot of good players on the team let them play the season is about done anyway. Lets build for the future. But the future doesn’t include Smith. So start with the base you have and move on.
January 24th, 2008 at 9:25 am
would the Weber apologists ever admit any faults or mistakes….
Ok, once again, I’m not calling for his head (mainly because the potential influx of talent)..
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However, over the last 2+ years Weber has proven beyond any doubt that all that talk about his “great X&O” “game planning/management,” and “player development” skills was no more than BS!!!!
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Yes, he’s not a bad coach, but he ain’t great either. I’m not going to repeat what those other posters said about this year; but I’ll ask you, Weber apologists, this: cite a single game, ONLY ONE, where we won against the (heavy) odds; in other words, an upset.
NONE!!! we have never, EVER, beaten a team we were not expected to beat in almost 5 years (since Weber took over).
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Just think of it..
We’ve beaten a lot of teams that we were suppose to beat; we have lost to all the teams we’re expected to lose; however, we have lost to a lot of teams we shouldn’t have lost to (let’s not forget losing to PSU at home 2 years ago to end our home-win streak), and have given up big 2nd half leads the last 2 years.
That’s my boys is evidence of average/bad coach that was initially riding a talented team, and which started to get exposed as the talent on his team dwindled.
Spin that!!!!
January 24th, 2008 at 10:31 am
Jim, you’re right we should get excited over almost home wins over Miami, TSU, and PSU…whew we almost got them this year on our home court - maybe next year…and the year after that maybe BAM will see a JR High game where they play multiple defenses, and press during a game and he’ll learn how to run them …you know Weber’s daily motto:
“The best time to start any job is tomorrow.”
should put that under the Bruce Weber Court logo in the Hall..
January 24th, 2008 at 10:37 am
Rosco- I hope you’re right– Maybe it’s always darkest before the dawn or that poor recruiting (not just for pure talent, but for character and scheme too) really has just brought everything down.
But I’m truly concerned that BAM isn’t acting the way a “leader” should– there’s far too much complaining & excuse making for my taste.
January 24th, 2008 at 11:02 am
Archie, that is very good.
January 24th, 2008 at 11:21 am
KYM-I, too, watched the Kentucky/Tennessee game (because the Illini weren’t carried here in California). What stuck with me was the announcers’ discussion of how great the Kentucky fans were because of their support for the Wildcats even when they were losing and weren’t playing well. KYM — you brought up how you were waiting to see if these fans would storm the court after upsetting Tennessee. Those thoughts bring up an interesting issue for me–there’s some talk on this blog about mid-major talent on the Illini, with a mid major level coach. Maybe we need to add into this discussion that we have mid-major fans booing (and not supporting) the team. maybe all the mid-majors deserve each other. waddayathink?
January 24th, 2008 at 11:49 am
Roscoe, Wise Old Al, Jim — Thanks for the efforts — excellent posts.
January 24th, 2008 at 12:27 pm
Well, Archie, you asked for an example of an Illini upset, ONLY ONE, so here it is. If you check the archives for Jan. of 2007, you’ll find that on 1-23-07 the Illini beat 23rd ranked Indiana 51-43 when the Illini were nowhere near to being ranked & were hobbled with injuries. Don’t say NEVER unless you’re very sure.
January 24th, 2008 at 12:39 pm
The BOT is extending Guenther’s contract. Wow, UI really wants to win. BOT, you are idiots! Or is that Warren Carter?
January 24th, 2008 at 1:51 pm
X- Care to give us the name of the coach atleast? I can think of several players under each coach.
Wise Old Al- I totally agree. Great post. Enjoy the journey.
January 24th, 2008 at 2:14 pm
X- I don’t remember how hard he was recruited, but what about Victor Chukudebe?
January 24th, 2008 at 2:14 pm
KYM- No, only one pass in my pocket. I can give a pass to a guy who took us to our first NC game and has done nothing but win since he got here. We suffer this year because of the Gordon/Smith issues and poor, inconsistent play out of our two seniors. With graduation, Smith being eligible, and Legion essentially replacing Gordon, I see a major improvement next year and major talent coming in the next 2 years.
DIF- Your basketball knowledge is so elementary. You compare Weber to another good coach in Williams. Hardly an insult to be compared to him. Then you go on to say that Weber was the reason we lost to Maryland. No, poor shooting, free throws, and turnovers made us lose the game. Not a bad call or two by Weber. You and KYM have the same jaded philosphy. You think that one big win by Kentucky or Maryland suddenly makes them a great team. They still have problems. If Illinois beats Indiana or Wisconson on the road, it’s a good win, but we are still a below average team. Any team can beat another on any night. You are like arguing with a little kid who won’t listen. You refuse to look past this season and look at the success Weber has had here over the past 5 years or to look at the major recruits that are on there way. No one will tolerate Weber having multiple bad seasons. One? Yes. Considering the circumstances. It sucks that Gordon stiffed us at the last second, it sucks that Smith got suspended and Carlwell/Semerau are still not 100%, and it sucks that Pruitt and Randle play with no heart or consistency. But to place all the blame on Weber and demand that he be fired is ridiculous. And who do you bring in? Another mid-major coach that you will be ripping apart three years from now? Weber is a classy guy and a great coach. We will be back on top again. Like Wise Old Al said, enjoy the ride. It’s a game. A sport. How special was it to see J. Leman and the other seniors make it to the Rose Bowl after the hideous seasons they had before this one. This is the first time in a long time that we have a great coach in each sport. Give these guys some time to finally bring home the one thing we have never had….a National Championship. Go Illini!
January 24th, 2008 at 2:22 pm
Quiz Answer:
Ken Norman
You old timers help me with the details. As I remember it Montgomery was the starter and Norman was on the bench. Montgomery gets hurt prior to the tourney and Lou has to play “the snake”. All ken does is go for 20 plus for 2 games, is a stud the next year and goes on to be a very good NBA player.
The guy may have never left the bench if it wans’t for an injury.
January 24th, 2008 at 3:53 pm
Archie, how about the Dec. 1, 2004, game vs. Wake Forest, who were ranked #1 at the time. I think we were #3 at the time, not only did we beat ‘em, we beat them 91-73. Maybe it doesn’t rank high up there on the “upset” meter, but I believe the team set the tone for the rest of the season with that game.
January 24th, 2008 at 5:12 pm
Mr. Taylor: I agree completely that Maryland’s win vs. North Carolina & Kentucky’s win vs. Tennessee do NOT make either Maryland nor Kentucky a good team, but simply a very good win (1 game)! I also agree that if Illinois does defeat Wisconsin, Indiana, or Michigan State @ home, it is a very good win for the Illini( & they certainly do need a “quality” win), but a win does NOT all the sudden make them a “good” team! I am still NOT convinced @ all that my alma mater, IU, is a top 10 team; however, as they continue to win (for now), I guess I can state they are @ least a good team!
January 24th, 2008 at 5:15 pm
The Wake Forest victory was a surprise. But, it was not an upset. Illinois was clearly the better team. An upset is when you beat someone you shouldn’t because they are a better team. Maryland beating NC was an upset.
January 24th, 2008 at 5:18 pm
KYM: Congratulations on Kentucky’s nice win over Tennessee! Patrick Patterson is becoming a force in the middle ( I am sure UK fans hope he is NOT one & done)! Being an IU alum/fan, I normally do NOT root for UK often; however, I am NO fan of Tennessee’s head coach (from his Iowa days)! Too bad UK could NOT pull out that win @ Florida; I am a “GATOR HATER”!
January 24th, 2008 at 5:26 pm
Brooks-What team are you watching this year? Weber has won some games at IL, against inferior talent. He can’t beat a ranked team (NONE in 3 years) - and this year, he can’t beat anybody - with his guys! I’ll take Self and Self’s guys anytime. Don’t tell me Self can’t coach. Self would have won the NC w/ Dee, et al. Brooks, you are such a Weber apologist. It’s become painfully obvious how far over in over his head he is. And if he was any kind of a man (with some kahunes), he’d resign and let everybody move on.
January 24th, 2008 at 5:47 pm
Brooks are you a Weber fan or ILL fan? You back this guy like a 6 yr old in the late 80’s and early 90’s did Air Jordan with a poster on their wall worshiping him.
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It’s amazing your passion for Weber. When they lose it’s the seniors fault, gordon’s fault, sampson’s fault, rose’s fault, the refs fault, Jamar’s drinking ploblem’s fault, FT shooting’s fault, chester’s fault, KYM’s fault, anyone and anything but Weber.
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The program has been on a downward slide for 3 years (evidenced by 2nd Rd, 1st Rd, NO round - you have zero argument against the FACTS). If AZ doesn’t lose the E8 game (yes they lost it) you’re biggest hollering point of a FF and NC are gone.
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I have no problem with you saying he’s a ok coach or good coach (stats from previous yrs you can hold onto for about one more yr then that goes out the window), but a “great” coach??????
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-You’ve given him a pass on recruiting for not 1, but 5 years. Great they’re coming in 2010 or 2012, but what about the past 5 years??????????
-This guy has changed defenses 3 times in 5 years. You call that great coaching????? I forgot he’s Wooden and his system is better than anyone’s and he doesn’t have to adjust the game plan for ANYONE. The fact he played a zone this year and everbody thought it was such a great move - yea right, in 7th grade teams play 3-4 defenses in one game (and they press too: 1/2 court, full court).
-He’s got major holes on his staff, and if not for Webster leaving, his #1 recruiting guy wouldn’t even be here. It would be different if he fired Webster and made the move, but he’s all reaction, never proactive.
-This year is a perfect example of how he and his staff have let the program go to hell. A coach can’t get every MCD player, but they can understand their own system and continually plug new players (either HS or Juco) into it and maintain a program. The last 3 years we have plugged not one hole. BAM BAM even admitted he was shooting from the hip at the start of year about who to start and how much to play them. What “great” coach admits that or even has that problem. Uh gee i recruited these guys, not sure who plays where or what they’re good at, but golly gee i’ll pull a rabbit from hat - PATHETIC.
Question for you - do you think we would be 9-11 if Self had stayed??? Your argument will be well Self hasn’t been to a FF (great..he’s got a better record than BAM in last 5 years, #2 right now, and been to 3 E8’s - and by your logic if he gets to the FF this year then he’s a “great” coach too.
You always say to people who would you replace him with…but if BAM is so great, such a great man, and such a “great” coach, how come not other programs are beating down his door to get him - how come his name is NEVER mentioned when other job openings come up?????
Oh wait my bad, he’s waiting for Coach K to step down, because Duke wants him over Dawkins…No wait UNC just called to replace Williams..No wait the Lakers just called they want a “great” coach out in LA…Oh wait Augustana College called and said nope, they don’t want him…
January 24th, 2008 at 7:42 pm
Archie…excellent post…hitting the nail right on the head, and you just saved me a long respond to Brooks.
Brooks, read archie’s post above as it answers all your flaued arguments. “IL Poor shooting, free throws and turnovers lost the MD game” you say…but, you conviniently forget to conclude your statment by saying “who were recruited and coached by Weber”…right? Of course. You can’t have it both way, Brooks…we are watching you very closely, my friend. Incidentally, last time I looked,Gary williams has a National Championship ring…does weber?
Anonymous? (you sure must be a Guenther or Weber apologist)…anyway, sorry you miseed my point. The point I was making and will continue to make is that this is business and for the right compensation package (which Guenther is too cheap to pay or else, Bill Self would still be at IL) any, and nearly all, top quality caoches can be hired to coach IL…can’t be worse than what we have now…can it now? As for their names (5 or more)…well, I have a few in mind but it would be out of place for me to name any…I am not the IL AD…that’s why we pay big bucks to Mr. Guenther…to make these kinds of hard decisions…the hardest of them all, letting Mr. Weber go…and soon.
January 24th, 2008 at 8:46 pm
When’s the next game? I know better than to say something before the next blog(I hate that word) Why not have a limit on words because some of these people cannot speak good ingresh. For those of yuo who didn’ get it, that was irony. Did you actuall,y get a degree here
January 24th, 2008 at 9:07 pm
Cal Illini - As an alum of Kentucky I can tell you that they aren’t supportive when their WINNING! I’m serious! I have literally heard them say “Let’s see what he does next year” a day after Tubby won their last title. They have stunning knowledge, loyalty, and the harshest tough love tactics, you will ever see. I guess I would say it works because they have been tremendously successful. But coming from ” oh well, we’ll get em next year” Illinois, it is a real experience up close and personal. I sort of think booing is uncool period. (never undertood saying boo? I always yell you suck! Ha Ha!) I do like it that we are upset. Shows we DO BELIEVE we belong. And that is the only hope I got right now!
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Brooks - You gave him a pass last year (injuries), and I assume the year before (we only had TWO returning first team Big Ten players!). If these Seniors are responsible for this debacle then does that mean Carter and McBride were responsible for last years 23 wins and not Weber? As for Kentucky, they have two starters gone nearly all year , and a transfer(on a team Tubby left bereft of talent and balance) AND they have a win over two top TEN teams in ten days. We play a CLOSE game against Tenn ST and your giving out passes!
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John Sheary - Sorry I can’t return the favor. I would rather puke than root for IU! Patterson is beautiful to watch isn’t he? Variety of post moves and SOOOO patient. I think he’s got another year at least. Did you hear how Gillespie got him to stay. Showed up at his house with his entire YEAR planned out to the hour! Patterson said he was so stunned that someone cared that much he confirmed right on the spot. Awesome! Disturbing and SAD, but awesome! Me thinky you Hoosiers are going to be in trouble once Gillespie gets settled.
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X- I remember it sort of the same way. I thought it was for Efrem. Of course my family didn’t have CBS (long story involving a lightening stike and my father getting around to putting up a new antenna NEVER!) I remember reading the paper saying “WHO in the “bleep” is Ken Norman?
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Hedgehog - Really good stuff. Boy the Self elephant is in the room again! I gotta be honest. I’m rooting like crazy for him to win a title. Won’t help us recruiting. But, to all of fans who think it’s only about coaching that outta deflate their sails and pack them away for good. Nice point about other schools and Weber. That previous article made it sound like Weber was/is being courted heavily. Painter would get a look before Weber! Nicer point on Webster. Yeha tehe guy sucked so bad he had to leave before Webber noticed? Nice!!!
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As for replacement coaches (I don’t want this for continuity sake and nothing else). You guys think St Mary’s SHOULD be ranked AHEAD of us? That coach might be better! How about Drew at Baylor? First time they have been ranked since 1969!!!! That’s building a program! It’s Janaury 24th and we couldn’t beat Baylor or ST MARYS!!!! and we have equal wins to the football team? OUCH! Either Tupper has a gut of stone or he’s visually impaired but this team wore me out a long time ago!
January 24th, 2008 at 9:37 pm
This BLOG was fun to read this week. I like what Rosco & NYC Illini had to say . I disagree a lot with KYM, Archie & HedgeHog has to say. Put I have notice a somewhat change in how they are saying it. I have a lot more respect for you position when you donot come on as strong or in my face attitude. Just a few rebutals.
Archie: No way should we won 23 games last year. I would say be beat several times better than us.
HedgeHog: BW needs to watch JR. High games to learn Multipe Defense. Come on, why not just say you would like to see us use other defenses.
Ihis is one of our better blogs, keep it up.
January 24th, 2008 at 9:38 pm
I am also another “old codger” like Wise Old Al and am completely fed up with the negativity which pervades this Blog and even more so on the “Idiot Board”. Bruce Weber has done a good job as BB coach as Ron Guenther has done as AD. I am not particularly happy with the way this season has gone, but have certainly seen a lot worse at times in the past. I would point out that if Eric Gordon who was described in our local paper (Indiana) as changing his mind on a “non-binding verbal agreement”, had gone to Illinois, we would have had a very good season. (Those same people who criticize so much probably will say that the above description of his agreement is o.k., but where I come from, many business deals are made on a handshake and there is no such thing as a non-binding verbal agreement.) I am not trying to beat this dead horse, but that one development would have many of the naysayers spouting the praises of Bruce Almighty.
I have followed the career of Coach Weber from Purdue to Southern Illinois - which he developed into much more than a “mid-major” - to Illinois and we are lucky to have him. Ron Guenther also has done a good job of building up the athletic program(s) of the University, whether you want to believe it, or not. There appear to be no complaints from the Board of Trustees, the Donors, including Major Donors, the BB Season Ticket holders and those people on the waiting list for season tickets.
I cannot help but believe that the negativity of the people on these boards must have a negative effect on recruits who read this crap day after day.
While I am on the soap box, another pet peeve is the belief that all we have to do is raise the pay to some unbelievable salary and we could have retained Bill Self and hired anyone we wanted. How delusional.
With regard to Kenny Norman, without divulging any details, I was well versed on his career, not only at Illinois, but also in Junior College. He also had an attitude problem, and in spite of being an outstanding talent, “Snake” walked out of the National Junior College Championship Tournament at half-time and returned to Chicago. After realizing the magnitude of his mistake (and paying dearly mostly in the form of public embarassment), he was allowed to return to school. Lou Henson realized that he had a talented player but with an attitude problem. I specifically remember the first game where Snake scored 20+ points in the second half and one of the announcers pointed out to Henson that Norman has had an outstanding game. Henson’s remark was that “yes, he scored 20 points, but the man he was guarding scored 32 and until he learns to play defense, he will continue to sit on the pine”. I guess that this qualifies as throwing him under the bus. Ken (Snake) led the team through the next season, but as far as I am concerned, he appeared to be more concerned with getting the season over with and being drafted - he was the star of that team which was beaten by Austin Peay. Better athletic minds than mine stated that his attitude and performance in that game probably cost him a few places in the draft. Does anyone notice anything familiar about this attitude problem??
Anyway, I’m tired of the continual harrassment of those who defend the Illini and as “Wise Old Al” said - Goodbye!
January 24th, 2008 at 10:39 pm
Mark, isn’t it about time you offered a follow-up to the Pruitt situation, either as a new blog posting or in story form, as to whether Pruitt has responded the way the coaches had hoped to the disciplinary action for the OSU game and about what the coaches hope he will do differently from now on?
January 24th, 2008 at 10:42 pm
anything new on Pruitt’s status for the next game?
January 25th, 2008 at 6:36 am
I second the word limit. Some of the posters here love to hear themselves write.
Afterall, you need to be ready when those Div. 1 schools starting knocking on your door offering you coaching jobs.
Honestly, if you’re so overwrought about the state of Illinois basketball or get some thrill out of posting the same crap time day after day after day, wouldn’t you be happier elsewhere? And I’m not saying like it or leave it (Illini basketball), I’m truly concerned for your health.
Brooks, Roscoe, Wise Ol Al, et. al, keep up the good fight.
January 25th, 2008 at 8:01 am
“Jim Prevails as Late Rally
by Old Injuneer Falls Short”
This Weeks Super Six Word Count
Jim 637
Old Injuneer 599
Hedgehog 590
Kentucky Mike 579
Roscoe 480
Disgusted Illini Fan 475
January 25th, 2008 at 8:29 am
I know many of you probably read Tupp’s column in the Herald-Review or his blog every day, but for those of you who don’t, there is a good article by Tupps today about R. Alexander.
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I don’t know if there is more than one anonymous on this board,(I assume there is, since the one who said this capitalizes Anonymous): “He (Weber) can’t beat a ranked team (none in 3 years)”….. You must have missed my recent response to Archie about the same thing. Click on Jan. of 2007 in the archives section of this blog & go to Tupp’s article for 1-23-07 that points out that the Illini beat 23rd ranked Indiana 51-43. The Illini were a long ways from being ranked & had a lot of injuries at that time. Isn’t this by definition an “upset win”?
January 25th, 2008 at 8:43 am
Weber…a mid major coach? Get real! If Eric Gordan and Samscum weren’t lying cheats then everyone in here would be marching to the beat of a different drum. When EG left we had already based our class around him and turned down other potential guys. So that is a huge part of the problem. I can already see some of you who are calling for Weber’s head jumping on the bandwagon in 2010. Obviously our mid major coach just brought in Joseph Bertrand, DJ Richardson, Jerome Richmond, Crandall Head, Stan Simpson, Brandon Paul, and Alex Legion but this was just luck………???
January 25th, 2008 at 9:21 am
Hedgehog-One of the most intelligent and well presented entries this blog has ever had. Watch out Tupper - this guy could have your job. He’s not afraid to “tell it like it is”.
January 25th, 2008 at 9:39 am
I have to say to all of you that Pruitt should only play off the ofense. In other words rebound and be a junk player. In our losses we have defensive breakdowns or foul trouble. We need to protect Randle/Pruitt and Meachem/Holdren with a zone chosen at good times on occasions. Holdren, Cole and Alexander need more playing time added to slate because they are 3 people who can hit a jump shot. I despise McCamey as a scorer but he is a good point guard. Davis and Randle together are formidable - sit Pruitt some more and let those two play with Tisdale to make up for his lack of athleticism and strength (he wil be solid some day though). I wish we had mid-major talent because at least then we could shoot. This whole trend in the last two years is all because of the lack of shooting (free throws and perimeter). Bruce Weber needs to adjust, you can run sets and the triangle offense if you have great shooters and offensive creaters if the set breaks down. He needs to take advantage of what Illinois has over 95% of the Big Ten - athleticism. They need to run more, use their depth and try to get easy baskets outside of their offense. He has been too resistant to change. Since the Wisconsin game it has been better becasue he hasn’t done the reverse the ball around the perimiter for 20 seconds and then have 15 to attack, they always got stagnant in that approach.
Try other things!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sub more like in the Maui tournament and if we lose I can live with it because the WHOLE team is geting better. Don’t center your offense around a center who late in the game won’t pass and then miss foul shots while the other team hits threes and we trade Pruitt’s one free throw with a mid-major talent other teams shooter (who we didn’t recruit because he was not 4 star or athletic enough) nailing threes!!!!!!
January 25th, 2008 at 9:41 am
Arter-I don’t know how my post ended up being attributed to Anonymous, but I was the one who said Weber hasn’t beaten anybody in three years. Indiana was ranked by only one service for one week. That’s not exactly beating a “ranked” team. More like beating a team that shouldn’t have been ranked at all. I think you should take Hedgehog’s entry, copy it, and post it on your bulletin board for future reference. This program is awful. It has no direction, no leadership, no continuity, no life! And that falls at the feet of one man only - Weber! If he doesn’t go soon, the program will be worse off than when we were on probation.
And massey-Did it ever occur to you (and the rest of you Weber apologists) that Gordon didn’t like what he saw at Illinois and decided he would be wasting his time with our guys around him vs. IU’s? Maybe it had nothing to do with lying and cheating, and had a lot more to do with talent and coaching. Sure Sampson’s phone calls are probably just the tip of the iceberg, but none of us really knows that, so please stop stating it as fact until you are certain, Mr. Prosecutor.
January 25th, 2008 at 10:21 am
Bill (Arter): I did see your previous post about that Indiana win on 1-23-07..
All I got say is if you are haning your head on a win over an overrated IU team that was ranked 23rd at the time, but finished with a 2nd loss in the NCAA tourney and a 33rd ranking (yup check the final AP/Coaches ranking for 06/07) than GOOD FOR YOU.
P.S., that Indiana team that we beat had LESS talent (based on ranking…etc) than the Illini squad that beat it… GO ahead, check the players’ scout/rivals…etc ranking.
If anything, this win shows how you deflated your expectation of Weber’s ability to use potential talent he has on the team.
January 25th, 2008 at 11:36 am
KYM- I have hardly given Weber a pass over the last two years. He didn’t need it. 23+ wins and an NCAA birth each year does not constitute a need for a pass. This is Illinois. Not Duke, Arizona, or NC. Be realistic. We weren’t calling for Self’s head when he was producing the same results.
I’m being a realist. Weber has his flaws. He greatly under estimated recruiting. That problem looks to be fixed. With all the doom and gloom from DIF, Hedgehog, Marlin, KYM, etc, then why are major recruits coming here? Why did Legion transfer here? Why? Because of Weber. You so called experts are obviously smarter than the players or there coaches and families who encourage them to come here and play for Weber. Give me a break. You need good players who can create to run the motion offense. Add Gordon and Smith to this year’s team and it is a completely different story. A down year, for whatever reasons, doesn’t mean you just fire the guy.
Hedgehog- How do you know that other school’s arent interested? Not everything is made public. School’s often call to gauge interest before making things public. Weber and RG made it clear from the start that they both wanted Weber here for the long haul. Weber has expressed no desire to leave so why would other teams pursue him? Weber has his flaws like everyone else. He’s not the best coach in the country. But he’s also not the horrible coach and recruiter that you guys claim that he is. I’ll gladly stand up and support a guy who is doing things the right way. He’s making these freshman earn there minutes. He showing loyalty to his seniors regardless if they truly deserve it. Most importantly, he doesn’t sway because of public opinion. We run a motion offense and play tough man-to-man defense. Suddenly playing zone is not going to fix this team.
Hedge- How can you truly rate his recruiting? Chester. I agree. Will never be more than a back-up PG. Brock and Pruitt have been decent players. We haven’t seen much of Semerau, Carlwell, and Jamar due to injury/suspension. CJ is a better football player. This freshman class has alot of promise. McCamey, Tis, Cole, Davis, and Alexander all have talent and will contribute more and more. Legion and Simpson have major potential. Dj, Paul, Bertrand, JR, and Crandall all have major upside. Throw in a Tyler Griffey and we have a realistic chance of finally winning a NC. Judging Weber solely on Frazier, CJ, Brock, and Pruitt is not exactly fair. A few years from now, we will have a better idea how good of a recruiter he truly is.
Marlin- If this program is so awful and has no direction, then you must obviously believe that Howard and Weber are horrible recruiter’s. And all of these talented recruits are playing a bad prank on us. They will all verbal and then back out at the last second because Illinois is such an awful program. Right? I think you watched JFK too many times. Gordon is an Indiana kid. A lifelong Hooiser fan. I might agree with your theory if Gordon was an Illinois kid. Him and his family disliked Davis. So much so that they committed to Illinois. Davis leaves. All of his family, friends, and alumni put pressure on him to go to IU. I understand why Gordon did what he did. He just should have been more honest about it and told Weber from the beginning. It’s ridiculous to blame Weber for that. This kid will be a Top 3 draft pick and we were so close to getting him. You guys should be praising Weber. If Self is such a great recruiter, why wasn’t Gordon verbally committed to Kansas, or Duke, or NC? He had no reason to favor Illinois over any other school. Gordon chose Illinois because of Weber. That says something. Your only response to this is that they are all verbals and haven’t signed yet. You’re right. But what are you going to say when they do come here and Illinois is back in the NC hunt? Prepare to eat some crow. Go Illini!
January 25th, 2008 at 11:37 am
A couple comments on what others have said here…
Ken Norman: I was so busy in grad school out east I only saw Norman play in the Austin Peay loss. He obviously had major talent and a real career in the NBA. But I remember in the ’90s Doug Altenburger was providing color commentary for a game and the subject of Norman came up, and he said the problem he had with Norman was that whenever he passed the ball into Norman, “I knew it would never come back out” — Norman rarely passed the ball.
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Also, a factor (minor? I don’t know) in Gordon coming to IU was that his good friend and ex-high school teammate A.J. Ratliff was working hard to get him to IU even after Gordon verballed to the Illini. People forget that high school connection (North Central) and also the ENORMOUS pressure people in Indiana put on Indiana high schoolers to attend IU, Purdue, or Butler. Indiana has much more of a “you play in-state” feeling than Illinois ever had.
January 25th, 2008 at 1:08 pm
Illinirev: I 2nd your comments concerning the pressure Hoosiers place on their high school basketball players to stay “in-state”! My experience in this matter comes from being both an IU alum & living in Goshen, IN (near South Bend) for 10 1/2 years! In addition, if a high school basketball star in Indiana is being recruited by IU, a majority of Hoosiers feel that is the university that young man is destined to go for both a college education & to play basketball( unless the young man has some kind of personal or family “connection” to Purdue, Notre Dame, etc.). Hoosiers find it to be absolutely UNACCEPTABLE that recent stars such as Josh McRoberts, Sean May, Greg Oden, Mike Conley Jr., & the younger Zeller kid went/ or are going out-of-state to play basketball. Believe me, fair or not, the student athlete & their families here about it all the time! I do, however, personally wish that native Illinoians had the same passion for wishing their best high school basketball players stay home to play for the UofI vs. the Kansas’s, Duke’s, Kentucky’s, Memphis’s of the college basketball world!
January 25th, 2008 at 1:52 pm
I know because there has never been one mention in the press or more to the pt on the web. You forget this is 2008, not 1978. Coaching rumors true/false are all over the place today and none have included Weber - ever.
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I rate his recruiting by 2nd Rd, 1st Rd, No. Rd; I rate his recruiting by watching a terrible brand of basketball for the last three years culminating in absolutely horrible home losses to TSU and Miami. I hope his next 3 yrs are great classes, but in what world do you get a 3-5 yr pass on your job requirements???
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People who have never played the game on any level or ever truly watched great teams like Duke, UNLV, ARK, G’Town, Kentucky win titles in the past don’t understand the concept of switching defenses. From my 1st post until now, I have never said go play a zone for a whole game - that would be as worthless as doing what Weber does now. The point is a coach can change the momentum and flow of a game by implementing multiple defenses.
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For example, with this pathetic offense we have where we struggle to try and hit 60, why wouldn’t you want to speed up the game and let Randle, McCamey, Davis, Alexander press every now and then and get out and run. At the same time you need to adjust your defense to other team’s strengths, that requires a coach to sometimes implement a zone, or a 1-3-1, or a box-1, or a press - for the love of god even just throwing out one FC press after a made free throw in the 1st half would be a miracle for Weber.
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Do you need to change defenses every game? No. Sometime the man v. man has worked well the whole game. But to change defenses (even then, only a zone) 3x in 5 years is unbelieveable. People also don’t get that it’s not that hard to run a press or a zone/1-3-1/box-1; these kids are not idiots, most of them have run them in HS.
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Coaching wins close games, that’s why we lose all close games. Changing up the D even 1-2 times per game to throw something new at a team gives you a chance at an extra possession at the very least. It’s pretty damn basic stuff, that our great coach doesn’t get.
January 25th, 2008 at 2:10 pm
Who are Wise Old and Old Injuneer? Shouldn’t these guys have actually contributed something to this blog before writing these unabomber manifestos of disenchantement? I would like to offer praise or concern at their leaving but I seriosly have no clue who these guys are. Best I can do is a “Well, see you later”!
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Rev - I’m not sure that’s all that comforting. I got a guard standing out on the wing, in the middle of a game, thinking, “Gee, if I pass him the ball he won’t pass it back” yet the guy whose worried about not getting the ball is NOT the ball hog? Seems like neither is a team guy!
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Brooks - Gordon was hailed as proof that Weber was a great recruiter. Now we find out Illinois was a consolation pick? This is the razor thin line you walk. Let’s just put your stance as this. Good = Weber, Bad = Gimme a minute I’ll think of something! Let me know who you think we ARE comparable to. Then maybe we can discuss how we are really doing. I’m really giving you a chance to research and pick real bunny programs to compare ourselves to. Take your time, better yet list all the programs we are not as good as!
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Ccorleone - I got one to add to the “I’ve never blogged before but” list (or should I just call it Brent!) The “I don’t mean to beat a dead horse but” is it me or does the but mean “I didn’t believe a word I just said, so I will use this disclaimer to pretend I care” I digress! Why is it everytime a person starts with the dead horse rant they end up kicking over the tombstone, digging up the body, and just start pummeling the bones?
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WE KNOW GORDON WOULD HAVE MADE THIS TEAM BETTER!!!!! Not superior but better. Of course he would have been one and done and then the Homers could have excused the next three years as “We would have been good if Gordon hadn’t left” THAT’S WHY YOU RECRUIT GOOD PLAYERS EVERY YEAR!!!!!!!!!!
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Tmassey - We turned down other guys? We turned down other guys for a one and done? We turned down other guys when we have scholarships still available AND a walk on has another one? I’m seriously waiting for someone to bemoan the loss of Watkins!!!! Do us a favor and list every guy that has come here AND who has commited in the future. Let’s take a COMPLETE look at Webers recruiting. You know the thing he MISJUDGED!!!!!
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Do I win the word count?
January 25th, 2008 at 2:14 pm
Brooks-What are you going to say when they don’t? Caw! Caw!!
January 25th, 2008 at 2:24 pm
Marlin - I pointed out the “W” over
Indiana to you one other time & you said “I stand corrected”.
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Archie - I’m not hanging anything on the “W” over Indiana last year. You very strongly called out for an example of an upset over a ranked team & I gave it to you. If you & Marlin want to put stipulations on these claims & callouts, spell them out ahead of time, not after you’ve been called on them.
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Good job, Brooks. Go Illini!
January 25th, 2008 at 2:34 pm
KY (the “Anonymous” of 2:10 pm, right?): I don’t know what “comfort” I was providing anyone. I was just sharing a story about Norman, since Xavier mentioned him. I DID watch Altenburger thru most of his Illini career and he was, IMO, a very UNselfish player on the offensive end, not a “ball hog.” Notice Doug said, “I knew it would never come out” — that means he passed to ball to Norman anyway. Of course Norman was more valuable than the equally selfish Pruitt, because Norman had so much more talent (and he was a GREAT rebounder).
January 25th, 2008 at 2:52 pm
Archie, kindly list the games the Illini played in over the last five years where the team was the decided underdog (”heavy odds” I believe is the phrase you used). Off the top of my head, I can think of games against Duke this year and at Ohio State last year. Am I missing some?
January 25th, 2008 at 4:00 pm
Hey folks, there’s plenty of us out here who read this blog daily, but choose to stay out of the fray. I think some of us are just getting so tired of the doom and gloom and naysayers that we feel compelled to chime in once in a great while.
Please don’t equate number of posts with having something worthy to say.
January 25th, 2008 at 4:31 pm
Illini guy wrote
I have to say to all of you that Pruitt should only play off the offense. In other words rebound and be a junk player
This is an idea certainly worth considering. As many have suggested, the around the perimeter trying to get the ball to Pruitt has not worked much of the time. crk
January 25th, 2008 at 5:25 pm
At least Norman could score. I don’t mind if the ball never comes back out as long as it goes through the basket. I remember a spread in Sports Illustrated regarding the “new” 3-pt. line and Altenberger was featured in it. Everyone in Illini land had BIG hopes that he would light it up. What he did do was stink it up BIG TIME.
Tupp, please ask Bruce why he doesn’t apply the press at all. I jsut wonder sometime why he doesn’t utilize the depth we have and the athletes to get some “easier” baskets. I would love to hear his answer.
January 25th, 2008 at 6:24 pm
Rev - Yep, I’m anonymous again! (Not all those others just the last one) I did get your point. Wish Altenberger would have made any shots his senior year but thats another point. I do defend Pruitt quite a bit. Probably to much. But I know he’s the one that stopped the long dry spell against Wisconsin,(by NOT passing back out and splitting a very good double team! Do they double team you if you suck?) and I’d be PO’d if I got banged around as much as he does (since nobody else goes down low) then watch Frazier jack up a jumper that nicks the backboard. Trust me when they count the bruises Pruit wins hands down.
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John O - You are more versed on this but I did got a pretty good taste of the “STAY HOME” state pressure. I have to imagine that Kentucky is as harsh as Indiana. These guys on this blog don’t get it at all. It’s the finest of lines between civic pride and blackmail! It appears we are making strides to keeping them home. If we do we will be very formidable. By the way do you root for the Illini and the Hoosiers or are you just an observer? Just curios!
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Hedgehog - Completely accurate and completely wasted. I appreciate it though! You may want to add Illinois is probably the school which actually plays basketball and demands the most academically (in the B10), yet runs the simplest defense, and has drastically reduced it’s offensive playbook. Good thing we keep the standards HIGH!!!!
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Let me settle this riveting debate. We have one amazing win against the mighty 23rd ranked Hoosiers at HOME. We have amazing losses against Tenn St, Penn St, Miami OH, Penn St again!, and whomever we lost to last year in the Tourney (ah the tourney seems so long ago!) heck of a ratio!
January 25th, 2008 at 6:32 pm
Westmont, and Bill:
you guys are so focused with beating a ranked team; but my originally post said: “Weber apologists: cite a single game, ONLY ONE, where we won against the (heavy) odds; in other words, an upset. NONE!!! we have never, EVER, beaten a team we were not expected to beat in almost 5 years (since Weber took over).”
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I did not ask for “a” win against a rank team, when the line with narrow line; I said win against HEAVY odds. I don’t think we a big underdog against IU at home last year; I don’t have the vegas line, but I’d bit it was within 5pts either way.
In other words, the games I’m looking for are games like this year’s against Duke, last years’ games against Wisky and OSU… do you need me to remind you how we did in these games?
BTW, I also talked about losing a lot of games we were not supposed to lose; didn’t hear either of you comment on that… interesting
January 25th, 2008 at 6:32 pm
Wow, the polarization on this blog is astounding. A good rule in life is that things are never as bad or as good as they seem. I think that many here need to think about that and try to gain some perspective.
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The truth is, we know when Weber has talent we know he can coach - see 2005. And no, talented teams don’t “coach themselves”. That is a ridiculous notion. At the same time, he is not a miracle worker. While I think he is a solid bench coach, he has shown he is not one of the elite minds with the results from this season. Does that mean he isn’t good or should be fired? Hardly.
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It’s also painfully obvious that his recruiting for the past 3 seasons has well, sucked. Anybody who can’t see that is seriously sipping the kool-aid and needs to step back and realize we recruited one, ONE, worth-while shooting guard in the 2004-2006 classes. You can’t expect to be successful that way.
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And before I go any farther, those of you harping on the Gordon thing need to just STOP. It’s over, can’t do anything about it, just forget it and move on! Regardless of the reasons or the motives EJ isn’t playing here now or ever. Deal with it.
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Now, for those of you who harped on recruiting the past few seasons on this blog when Illinois was winning, it’s funny that you give it so little creedance now. We have a slew of great players coming in the next 3 years. Including some great guards, which is what we are clearly lacking. If you were following this with a reputable UI recruiting service you would know that Paul, Richardson, Head, and Richmond are all going to be highly ranked when it is all said and done. So…stop with all the “fire Weber now” crap (and yes Himey I am talking to you). It’s obvious he has fixed the recruiting issues and although this season is a bust it will start looking up as soon as next year.
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Now, for Brooks, this years team is just flat out bad. No chemistry, no leadership, no development. That falls squarely on Weber’s shoulders. To give him the credit for 2005 and absolve him of the guilt for the piss poor job he did putting this years team together and coaching it is just as bad as wanting him fired.
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Now I will leave with a question. Why is a UK alum posting some of the most critical, negative crap on this blog? You say you grew up in Illinois, correct? Did a certain home state University reject your application?
January 25th, 2008 at 9:44 pm
Middle ground…Thanks giving credence to both sides of the issue with perspective. There are a few others that are not just “taste great” or “less filling”.
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Hedgehog my friend…lots of cheers from your fellow constituents. A pretty good commentary but a bit heavy handed. As to your statement that “coaching wins close games” I do recall several “close wins” during Weber’s tenure…but none recently. This to me underscores the talent, or lack of talent issue…not coaching. If you will allow me one example. Do you really think Weber said “Now Warren, we have this lead, so let’s play smart. When you bring the ball down court the next three times under pressure, all you have to do is throw a lob cross court.” Not a great example, but hopefully the point is made.
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I see Weber (the games I can watch) giving direction to the players during the game (follow through with the wrist, bend your legs, cut off the baseline) to name a few. I also agree about changing the defense more often, better inbounds plays, and maybe sticking with a guy a little more after a mistake.
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Early in the year Weber said he wanted to fast break as much as possible and they were working in it every day in practice. The bigs don’t run and the guards throw it away. Bad coaching or talent limitations?
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I am really surprised that no one has even mentioned the eye opening truth in the most recent article right here about “Junior showing some life”. Without question it answers how supportive and challenging Weber has been to get Alexander to play up to his capabilities. That my friends is coaching.
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Peace brothers
January 25th, 2008 at 11:14 pm
Archie- Illinois has been a Top 15 program since Weber came here, so finding a game where we were the major underdog is not going to happen. We are normally favored or the odds are very close. The only possibility of your theory happening would be this year, but like I said about the Maryland and Kentucky wins, one win means nothing. So please stop asking and posting that useless statistic. If we win at Indiana or Michigan State, it still doesn’t mean much. Consistancy is what we need. Weber has proven he can win with talent. Unfortunately, that talent isn’t here this year.
Striving- Thanks for the common sense post of the year. If you guys knew me in real life or watched a game with me, you would see that I criticize Weber all the time. He certainly gets blame for this year and for the previous recruiting woes, but it isn’t completely all of his fault. I just see a good coach who has corrected his errors. Not one of us is perfect and neither is Weber. Unfortunately, this is something that cannot be fixed this year. To demand that he be fired or say that the program is at rock bottom is completely ridiculous. Bring Coach K in this year and this team still loses alot of games. To win, you must have strong guard play and you need your seniors to produce. We have neither. I agree. Let EG rest in peace. I’m excited about the kids who are on the way here. The future is bright at Illinois, regardless of what the naysayers post. Go Illini!
January 26th, 2008 at 2:05 am
Middle Ground…You almost fooled me, Pal. Just about the time I started believing that you really meant to act as a reasonable person and, supposedly, a peacemaker, you blew it by your assertion that Weber shouldn’t be fired…and that makes you just another Weber apologist. I mean, what part of “Weber has simply failed and must go” do you folks not understand? Look, Weber started here 6 years ago on top (with Self’s players, don’t forget) and his program is in the gutter today. The success that you folks claim he’d have in the future, he could have had the past 6 years, but he didn’t. So, if he couldn’t do it during the past 6 years stating with a very successful program, what makes you think that he can do it in the future starting in the gutter now? See..it’s not that difficult to understand why he must go…is it now?
January 26th, 2008 at 8:40 am
I’ve been watching U of I b-ball since 1966. I can’t remember such bad offense for an Illini team, except for maybe in the mid 70’s before Bartow and then Coach Henson arrived. Shaun Pruitt: he gets the ball down low and doesn’t jump with any force sometimes. It’s like he tries to finess so he won’t be fouled. And when he does get fouled it’s barely 50% if that that he will make foul shots. The frustration I have of watching him in the low post with the ball mounts the more I watch him. And if he’s going to be a problem, let him sit and Tisdale play even more. Chester Frazier: maybe the worst outside shooting guard I’ve ever seen play for the Illini. There is no reason to have him on the court at the end of games, winning or losing. He does play good defense. He should sit and McCamey play, start getting ready for next year and after. The rest of this season needs to be focused on the future. The team does play good d most every game, the offense is horrific.Hopefully Jamar Smith gets his problems straightened out and can be a positive sitation for next year. His outside shot has been missed this year. Play Alexander and Cole more and hopefully the recuits and Legion getting to play next year will get the Illini back to winning basketball. Go Illini!
January 26th, 2008 at 9:09 am
DIF, you are a perfect example of a polorized poster with extreme tunnel vision. It’s a very simple concept really. Weber screwed the pooch with his guard recruiting from 2004-2006. The result is what you are seeing on the floor this year which has been absolutely awful. There is no debating that.
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Your “past 6 years” argument holds water like a sieve. Weber took Self’s players to the NC game. Like it or not, he gets credit for that. Has the recruiting coming off that stunk? Absolutely. Like I said before, he is a good coach not a miracle worker. He takes the rap for 2004-2006 on the recruiting trail.
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That being said, it sounds like you have no interest in following the recruiting that is going on now. I can’t say with any certainty if you were one of the people like KYM who talked endlessly about how bad recruiting was during the past couple of seasons but lend no creedence to it now that it has turned 180 degrees. If you are, then you have a serious anti-Weber agenda and your issues are personal with him. Say, you wouldn’t be that character that Nadel interviewed the other day, would you? If you are, Jay Price says “hi”. =O)
So you have Alex Legion (RCSI #36) waiting to lace them up next year with a healthy Jamar Smith. Following that, you have Brandon Paul (32 points last night), DJ Richardson (#53 on rivals), and Joseph Bertrand (#59 on rivals) coming in for 2009. They will also be adding a quality big man to that class in the near future. In 2010 you have two potential McDAA players in Head and Richmond. I am not going to break stats/rankings down for them because they are in the paper every week.
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If you can’t look at those players and realize that we have done a 180 in recruiting, then you are in denial and probably have some issues with the staff that goes beyond what you reveal here.
I’ll say it again, we stink this year and that is Weber’s fault. We are also poised to get a whole lot better with what is on the way the next 3 years. If it doesn’t happen, I will join the crusade at that time with no hesitations. If it does happen, will you give credit where it is due? Somehow I doubt it.
January 26th, 2008 at 10:02 am
Archie, so the Illini are 0-3 as heavy underdogs in the last five years. Why are you so excited about that? (Remember, you’re the one who brought up the topic.)
And where do you get that I’m “so focused with beating a ranked team”? I’m just asking you to clarify your original post. Perhaps your spin sounds better than the facts?
January 26th, 2008 at 10:23 am
KYM: I agree with you that the “best” high school basketball players in Kentucky are destined to receive a college education & play basketball for UK! I would even go so far to say that the best high school basketball talent in the Metro-Louisville area can be scorned for considering/attending even Louisville! I would agree that if Billy Clyde can get settled in, your Wildcats will give my Hoosiers a tough time, as they historically have. However, if Billy Clyde has a mediocore pre-SEC record next season as he has this season, the UK faithful will be “calling for his head”. I feel you would agree that NO college basketball fan base has as little degree of patience as the UK fan base. SEC championships & final 4’s are a minimum of acceptability for determining a successful basketball season for the Wildcat faithful. Lastly, I am first an Indiana Hoosier fan, simply because IU is my alma mater, & my oldest daughter just graduated from IU last May! However, as Illinois is the state I was born & raised in, & as the U of I is my wife’s alma mater (master’s degree), I do sincerely wish the best success for the U of I, & I will even root for the Illini, unless they are playing IU! In addition, my son & youngest daughter are U of I fans, as is my wife! My family has a “spirited, yet friendly” rivalry!
January 26th, 2008 at 10:49 am
Middla Ground…No my friend…I am not an anti-Weber man and I don’t have an agenda.I liked the man when he started and have given him all the benefit of the doubt…go back and read my postings from a few years back. I turned against him early this season when I saw the MD game in person and how he lost to a better coach, Gary williams…right there I saw Mr. weber as a bad fit for a major and elite basketball program.
I don’t have an agenda as I am merely a passionate Fighting Illini Fan and an Alum who wishes to see one..just one ..National Championship for either our Football or Basketball program before I die…and we can’t get it. In cidentally, that’s why I am much harder on Guenther than these coaches…go back and read all my postings.
I am sorry, I just can’t see Mr. Weber winning a NC at IL…if he couldn’t do it with nearly three extremely top quality players 3 years ago, he sure can’t do it with this incoming group, none of which could carry Deron Head and Dee’s laundry bag…and ther would go another few wasted years.
January 26th, 2008 at 10:54 am
Middle Ground - First I have never asked for Weber to be fired. Many think I have, none have ever shown one post to prove otherwise.
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Secondly, “the most critical, negative crap” is that a middle ground type of response? No that’s sensationalized. fact is I said two seasons ago that this recruiting stunk from a talent AND a balance standpoint. I was called negative, critical, moronic etc,. Now many would prefer I simply look forward and forget about all those “middle ground attacks”. I do see that we have commitments from 6 guys who are 6-7″ or less. Potentially excellent foundation for the future. Especially if we don’t play in the Big Ten, or play against a team with a big front line! However, we still have games this year, next year, and the year Weber finally got some talent in here. I personally find it concerning that a complete moron as myself realized that recruiting is essential yet a million dollar a year “genius” “misjudged” the importance of this issue. That’s all!
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As for the UofI the profession I chose required an accredited program. Both UofI and Uk had accredited programs. I chose UK, saved about $2500.00 a year, and got to experience another state (you don’t even want to know about the differential in the quality of the coeds!)
Maybe I am a complete idiot. Would an intelligent person be concerned if an idiot was two years ahead of their Universities “genius” coach when noticing concerning trends in recruiting and in game decisions?
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I have no problem with your post. Love to hear more. But you almost made it thru while being relatively balanced. You couldn’t get past taking a cheap shot. Everyone is human. (Except for animals, plants, well you get the idea). But pardon me if I hammer you arse if you take shots at me under the guise of “balanced”!
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Anonymous - Editor Boy either come back or move on. If you truly are new use your name. Hard to take someone seriously when they can’t even post a moniker.
January 26th, 2008 at 11:04 am
Arter- Reread the post. I did not stand corrected on that item. Technically, Illinois beat a team ranked for one week in one poll. If you want to worship Weber for that bit of “success”, then go ahead. To me, it is a very sorry state when that’s all you have in the last 3 (that’s three!) years.
January 26th, 2008 at 12:17 pm
Very well said, Striving for Middle Ground. Basically, the same things have been said many times.
January 26th, 2008 at 1:52 pm
Tuppers comments today say it all about BW recruting .Looking at 8th graders says bhe or his staff have no ability in communiting with jrs or srs .What a sorry state he but the bb program .If i was RG I WOULD BE LOOKING FOR A COACH NOW RJL
January 26th, 2008 at 2:03 pm
Middle Ground, so many of you keep pointing to Weber’s incoming classes and we simply do not know if they are good or not. All we can do is look at results so far and as we all know, they are not great. Pointing to a future recruit and saying they are going to be at a certain level is “crystal balling” and no one can do that accurately.
January 26th, 2008 at 2:12 pm
Maybe the question should be WHY are we heavy underdogs to certain teams?
January 26th, 2008 at 2:15 pm
Uconn beating IU at their place today is how you win a game your not supposed to.
Of course, they made their FT’s down the stretch.
January 26th, 2008 at 3:01 pm
DIF- You say that you have been a longtime supporter of Weber. I have been debating you for years on this issue. I don’t ever remember you showing any support for Weber. Ever. You say the Maryland game turned you against Weber. Why? Gary Williams is a good coach. We lost a close game at Maryland. The same Maryland team that beat NC. Hardly a bad loss. We lost because of poor guard play and poor shooting. Not because Weber can’t coach. You also say you can never see Weber win a NC. Ummm….open your eyes? He had us in the final game. A bad shooting night and some bad fouls by Auggie and we still had a chance to win at the end. Can’t get much closer than that.
KYM- While you have never openly said that you want Weber gone, your constant negative comments say otherwise. You criticize Weber for not getting athletic wing players, and now that he has committments from major athletic players, you now criticize him for not getting the big bangers to survive in the Big Ten. Make up your mind. Simpson is 6′10 and you will have a healthy Carwell next year. I like Tis because he can shoot, pass, and run the court. He’ll continue to get his weight up and will be a major factor on this team. Don’t forget Cole either.
Middle Ground- Welcome to the club. I agree with everything you say. My head is still sore from banging my head against the wall from arguing with DIF, KYM, Marlin, etc. It’s pointless. They don’t listen. They are still hung up on Weber not being able to recruit despite the studs we have coming in. Good luck.
Jimmy/KYM- Excluding this year, when have we been heavy underdogs in the past 6 or 7 years? Hard to have a major upset win when you are normally either favored or the line is very close.
January 26th, 2008 at 3:05 pm
Marlin - I am not hanging my hat on that 1 win or worshiping Weber for it, merely reminding you of what you said.
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Quote by Marlin on 11-27-2007 @ 2:07 PM: “Bill Arter-I stand corrected. Indiana was ranked by one service for that week”.
January 26th, 2008 at 9:53 pm
I got to say one thing “fire Ron Turner before he ruins the Bears too”! Sorry guys didn’t mean to change the subject. But, I can’t stand him as a coach.
January 27th, 2008 at 9:38 am
Illini Gator- Couldn’t agree with you more. The strength of our offense this year was our two TE’s, yet Turner didn’t utilize them at all. No imagination on offense. He just needs to go away. I’m tired of him ruining my teams.
RH- You are right. No guarantees in recruiting. But aren’t these the type of major recruits that we all have wanted?
January 27th, 2008 at 10:13 am
Brooks - We were 11 point underdogs to Wisky. That to me is alot. I am not in this debate regarding underdogs. I compare us to N.Carolina, Duke. Whether we beat Northwestern or Wisconsin (or Indiana when theyare our hated rivals and our coach was acting like a scorned prom date!! Why don’t we give the seniors credit for that one?) means jack to me in the pursuit of a National Title.
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My harping on a small forward was due to us not having one. Two years from now having a small forward and completely inadequate big men really doesn’t seem to help much! BALANCE!!!! Create a team that can go against anyone strenghths!!!!!! You might also want to read Strivings post. There is crticism in their. Watered down. But there. You say you criticize Weber but your constant “positive comments” say otherwise (see how I used your words) Now we can play put words in each others mouth if you want but I say we leave that to the Jakes and Editor Boys of the blog.
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Sriving - I believe you said the recruiting issues were “fixed”. Here is why I believe they are improved but certainly not fixed.
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2008 Big Ten classses (I only studied these since I have been told to be realistic in my comparisons. Therefore I did not compare us to Carolina, Duke, etc. All numbers taken from Scout.com)
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Ohio State - #6, #12, #84
Mich St - #9 #90, #98
Minnesota - #70
Wisconsin - #80
Indiana - #13,
Illinois - Stan Simpson N.R.
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2009 Class
Illinois - Bertrand #54
Indiana - #68
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2010 Class
Illinois - Jereme Richmond #4
Ohio State - #7, #9
What’s the point? Well if you have to wait for Seniors to lead a program then Simpsons class will dominate us. Even though guys rarely skyrocket into the top 100 I to assume the 09 class will shape up to be very good. The 2010 class looked very, very good. But as you see Thad Motta didn’t give us any ground and his prospects for 09 are potentially better as Ohio State is listed some thirty times to the Illinois 3!
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Point is we have to do this consistently to KEEP UP, not do it twice in a row and call it done. It is not fixed! Until we are metioned as a “School of Interest” as many times as Indiana, Ohio State even Purdue our recruting is not fixed! I am more hopeful regarding the quality, but my next project will be harping on the balance and compostion!!! Wish me LUCK!
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John O - I believe they are the MOST intolerant fans inthe WORLD. I wonder why fans of a program THAT succesfull would be so demanding? Anyhow, I think this latest run shows Gillespie is the real deal. (I watched his work at A.M. up close and what he did was amazing!) Plus he understands recruiting is IMPORTANT!!! so they got that going for them! With those family ties and your background you are certainly a rare bird. I guess you were getting Gordon either way!
January 27th, 2008 at 12:22 pm
Brooks Taylor; I hope they are the recruits we want but that is my point; we don’t know. Based on the chart by Kentucky Mike above, it does not look that great. I also was just trying to say that you can’t paint a rosy future picture without much clearer picture of how great the recruits are compared to everyone else. I hope you are right but have serious doubts.
January 27th, 2008 at 2:53 pm
In comparing our recruiting to our losses it seems like we are not as bad off as the record shows. It has been pointed out that Weber’s 1st three recruiting classes were horrid missing on every top player we pursued. Here are the comparisons of how our recruits vs opponent: Dooook = vastly, vastly, vastly inferior (lost by 13 but final margin at the foul line), Maryland = inferior (lost by 8 with final margin at foul line could have won), Ariz vastly inferior (lost by 6 in OT final margin at the foul line could have won), OSU = vastly inferior (lost by 16 general blow out), PSU comparable recruits (lost by 4 at the foul line could have won), Wisc = vastly inferior (lost by 10 final margin at foul line could have won), IU =vastly, vastly inferior (lost by 4 had chance to win), PU = Vastly inferior (lost by 7 but threw the game away), OSU = vastly inferior (lost by 6 could have won). My point is that comparing recruits we should have been blown out in every game but PSU. People say that no one can beat good teams with our recruits, yet they rag on Weber for not creating miracles. Weber had the team in position to win every game and lost most at the foul line. He can’t shoot for these guys. Perhaps there are some things that he could have done differently to salvage a win but in the final analysis these guys just plane can’t shoot and none have three good games in a row. Weber is trying to find a combination but then sees Brock have two good games and then completely die, same with Randle, Pruitt, Alexander, Frazier, DMac and Meacham. Weber has had to focus on defense because no one can put up consistent offense to neutralize. I don’t like losing but I don’t see the sky falling and think the future is bright. I would like to see more youth on the floor, but in getting that I see loses by bugger margins. I think no one in the B10 is all that good and think that our chances in the BBT is slim but possible.
January 27th, 2008 at 4:30 pm
Great posts guys. I don’t post often, but I’d like to agree with the posters that are basically asserting that Weber’s coaching this year raises doubt about his coaching ability. I would like to reiterate that Tupper and other journalists need to start asking Weber tougher questions. Questions like: Why not speed up the pace and utilize the athleticism of Brock, Alexander, Randle, McCamey, and Davis? Why continue to rely heavily on the motion offense without real perimeter scoring threats (except possibly TM)? Why not change up the defense from time to time. Why not utilize a full or 3/4 court press occasionally? Why does Pruitt feel he must shoot when he gets the ball - is it because there are times when he is open, but doesn’t get the ball? Why can’t Randle stop fouling? Why does CF play so many minutes? Why not put your best offensive players on the floor when it’s obvious the team needs points? Why are we losing to teams with players that we would have never considered offering a basketball scholarship to? I don’t agree that Weber should be fired today, but I would like to know what he is thinking. That way, we can better judge for ourselves whether his aversion to change is justified, stubbornness, or just plain ignorance. GO ILLINI!!!
January 27th, 2008 at 4:43 pm
I, for one, like our current balance, and I believe that we’re not going to be the un-balanced team, in 2-3, some posters think… Why you ask? Two reasons:
1) Bigs take time to develop (unless you’re Oden or Carmello); 2) we have many bigs who will be Juniors and Senior when all these Gs/Ws arrive in ‘09, ‘10 [Tisdale, Cole, Carlwell, Semrau, Davis, Simpson]; while none of these bigs are a dominant Big; between the six of them we will have sufficient athleticism, perimeter shooting, and muscle from our 4/5 spots. If you add a stud big in ‘09, we will definitely be better; but getting bigs in ‘09 and ‘10 is not as critical (for th ‘10, ‘11 teams)… more so to replace the bigs that would at the end of there careers.
January 27th, 2008 at 5:23 pm
Hey guys i got to agree with D-Bird. tupps why dont you and your colleges in the media ask webber the tougher questions? i do hear you guys from time to time ask him a tough question, but you always let him off easy when he gives you some mumbo jumbo ans.I would like too know given are record and the fact were not getting anywhere like were playing now, why not speed up the game with a smaller athletic lineup and press full court too try to wake this team up. So what if it backfires and we do what lose. it doesnt matter if you lose buy 3 or by 23 its still a loss. lets try something. the statous que is not working. tupps i have heard you and others in the media tell us how good and hard illinois always does in the first half. Did you ever stop to think that the others teams just dont worry or practice hard before there games with us. Why would they? they no its gonna be the same thing . this team has no life with frazier and pruitt on the floor. yes frazier may have heart and play hard, but im talking about the team not just one player. I really dont think this team plays hard for whatever reason with chester and or pruitt on the floor.
January 27th, 2008 at 5:41 pm
KYM…thanks for the information above. I must say, for IL compared to other B10 schools, the chart you’ve shown for 2008-2010 is frightening.
Brooks…see KYM’s chart above…is this the so-called great incoming talents you’ve been shoving down our throat the past few days? Looking at KYM’s chart, we’ve got crap, man…we’ve got nothing compared to these other schools…pothetic.
D-Bird…you omitted free-throws in your list above. One thing that baffles me about Weber’s coaching is his teams’ way below average FTs…I mean how difficult is it to teach these kids FTS..and he and his coaches can’t even do that. Even I could teach FTs…just put them in front of the basket and tell them to keep throwing the damn ball into that hoop hours after hours after hours until they learn to do it right…this guy is worthless as a coach.
January 27th, 2008 at 9:29 pm
KYM, you forgot about Legion at #44, Richardson at #53, Head will be top 50. Paul is having a great season and will be ranked soon. The future is very bright.
January 28th, 2008 at 9:03 am
Namber-What’s your point? All I see is “lost by, but…” “lost by, could have…” “lost by, should have…” but’s, could have’s and should have’s don’t mean squat. You can delusion yourself and say we aren’t that bad if you want, but we are expected to be an elite program. People have interest in us. On the Ann Arbor sports station last Friday, it was pointed out that interest in COLLEGE BASKETBALL is down by some 12-15 (Nielson, I presume) in the Midwest. The commentator, a Michigan State man, said it was because ILLINOIS has had such a bad last 2 years. With this kind of commentary about us all over (at least) the Midwest, I worry about our “commitments”. Not to mention the fact that, other than Richardson who won’t be here for 3 more years, they aren’t rated as high as Brooks would have us believe. The future may not be all that bright, even IF the new guys make good on their verbals.
January 28th, 2008 at 9:12 am
Arter-Certainly my “stand corrected” comment was tongue-in-cheek. You can say what you want, but I will still say that Weber hasn’t beaten a ranked team in 3 years. In my mind, IU being ranked by one service for one week doesn’t cut it. THE GUY CAN’T RECRUIT AND HE CAN’T COACH.
January 28th, 2008 at 9:33 am
DIF- Why should I look at KYM when he pick and choose which recruits to put on there? How about Legion, DJ, Paul, and Crandall? I look at the recruits, not there rankings. These guys are only sophmore and juniors and already have college-like bodies. DIF- If you think our recruits are crap, then don’t jump back on the bandwagon when they get here in a few years. These kids have major potential. Maybe you should be a freethrow coach. If Pat Riley and Phil Jackson, two Hall of Fame coaches, can’t teach Shaq how to shoot a freethrow, maybe they should be fired too. Give me a break!!!
January 28th, 2008 at 11:44 am
Great! Now, not only do we have plenty of Division I coaches on the blog, but now we also have side-line journalists! This should be entertaining!
rh - to your comments on our incoming recruits….isn’t that the case with every recruit and every recruiting class?? No one knows how they’ll do in college, but so many on this blog are interested in rankings, they use that as their guide. We have more “talent” that has verbally committed to the program. Athletically, we will be improving, which is what so many on this board have been clamoring for. Of course when we get the verbals, then several start to say we aren’t looking outside of the state for talent (when many of them kept complaining about not getting Chicago-land talent), that we aren’t creating “balance” (when several have been calling for athletic wings) and that we offered “too soon”. Some people are never happy. Are we going to have to lump you into that group as well?
KYM - As others have stated, don’t pick and choose which players to include in your little diagrams. Either put ALL of our recruits into the matrix, or don’t freaking bother. Also, you say Bruce needs to do it several years in a row….pretty sure he knows that as he is already scouting 7th graders, building a relationship now that he can cultivate in later years. Maybe he does read your rants…..
Brooks - We need to get you a headband with a pillow in it. Your headaches would decrease dramatically.